Clouds

That tome is the bible of music industry professionals, and though the original entry was 1989 or thereabouts, the entry on Clouds was rewritten in the past few years including that quote. Having said that, I still agree with much of the sentiment of Dean's post. Must also confess an ignorance re Larkin, back to homework on that!

Good stuff from Dean, but quote from Encyclopedia of Popular Music  re 1-2-3  " a definitive precursor to the progressive rock movement".

giselle wrote: I still find it shocking that popularity and record sales decide the priorities of history. This genre is owed so much by 1-2-3 but you have to trawl the 'serious' critiques to find that openly stated.

I don't see why this should be so shocking. After a gap of some 40+ years, recorded material (which is what 'popularity and record sales' is a measure of) is the only factual evidence there is while everything else is anecdotal. This is not to say that anecdotal evidence is inadmissible or wrong, what it lacks is provenance and supportive contemporary documentation, in the form of magazine and trade paper articles from the late 60s and early 70s or even the hyperbole of press releases from record companies and band management. While what passes for music journalism, (which has never been an objective or accurate medium when it comes to popular music and the music business), cannot be considered reliable since it is generally biased and subjective rather than being factual reportage or the plain documentation of historical events as they happened, any subjectivism within that would tend to normalise to some extent if taken across a representative sample. This is how we can measure the relative success of any band in its live environment - the collective reporting of a number of journalists would average out any personal bias of an individual reporter - but to do that requires a number of different reviews to analyse. Later printed 'histories of Prog/Rock' are equally unreliable, since they themselves are based upon the similar anecdotal evidence they are cited to support, rather than upon any actual documentation from the era they are documenting. That we (modern Prog fans in general rather than PA in particular) are prepared to consider anecdotal evidence and scant contemporaneous documentation and not be wholly dismissive is enough I would have thought.

Edited by Dean - October 06 2011 at 16:43

Terrific to see info re 1-2-3 /Clouds in depth. Well done Prog Archives.

What's caused the controversy is 1-2-3 not recording any albums, and Clouds were essentially a different band who, with great irony, ended up seeming like any other prog act. Had 1-2-3 albums existed, there wouldn't be anything to argue about. Even without the albums though, there's no doubt whatsoever about the kind of music 1-2-3 was playing or the influence they had. The other big problem is the lack of commercial success. Mainstream mags and even this forum lean heavily on what sells rather than what counts in artistic influence. Though this forum, while by necessity/populariy using that commercial centre as its basis, at least in passing, shines the spotlight on every other kind of artist it can. That's rare and should be nurtured. 

Certif1ed wrote: There is a little controversy around Clouds - their music has an openly melodic appeal that sounds quite MOR pop - it's under the hood that the music is genuinely progressive. There was also an mp3 of the 1-2-3 version of Simon and Garfunkel's "America" - which I believe is the same version that's included on the recent CD package - which clearly has overdubbed audience reactions. The sound of the crowd is a completely different sound at the start to that at the end - it's a different crowd.    The quality is also rather good for a late 1960s live recording - and the fact that The Marquee (1-2-3's regular haunt) opened a recording studio back then makes me think that the band could have recorded it in there then dubbed crowd. Again, not a problem - this is very common.   There's no shame in it, it's just that this was denied by people close to the band, which arose suspicion as to its authenticity.   As far as I know, this is the only period recording of 1-2-3 - and its authenticity has not been 100% verified. So we only have the words of those close to the band - if true, then 1-2-3 were indeed months, if not years ahead of the game, as period recordings of The Nice demonstrate.   Scrapbook is still a superb light progressive album, and, given it was released in 1969, I have no doubts as to the bands progressive credentials.

A thoughtful post at least. But it's not true to say it was only the word of the band. Plenty of witnesses (including David Bowie and many important independent authors) attest to 1-2-3 playing drastically rewritten versions of songs like America in 1966-67. There may be questions re the recording, but not the content.

yeah i saw that. the guy gave an honest opinion which is fair enough. But if you do your research you'll find that 1-2-3 WERE two years ahead of anyone else and the website is run by a journalist who writes for major mags etc. Then again it would silly for him or anyone else to say that any one person 'invented' prog (though I dont think he says that anyway). it happened for all kind of reasons as Im sure you know better than most.

Certif1ed wrote: Definitely genuine prog - no question!   I just found a nice cover of a Clouds' song on YouTube - check it;

Hey thanks, that's really good! Pity it's only a bit of it. If Clouds is gen prog, why is it listed as prog related?

I'm not sure Clouds could be considered genuine prog, more proto-prog to me, but definitely important forerunners of the genre. Enjoyed the interview.

Malraux wrote:   I am not sure where you get the impression that what you wrote above is being claimed in the interview.   My six cents worth.   M.

What's written in the intro and in the questions is the interviewer's opinions and his/her opinions alone (the interviewer in this case is me, but you will also find interviews by other members of ProgArchives. Hence I am using 3rd person here). That's why I have a #, @, ~, _ or - type of line + use bold letters to differenciate between the interviewer's opinions, in this case myself, and the band's opinion. ProgArchives never ever manipulate or falsify the views of the interviewed bands/artists. 

Let me also add that I learn something new about this music every single day and I am liable to be red-faced when I read what I once wrote. I am by no means perfect and I surely have views which is purely wrong and utter nonsense. Let's leave it like that.    

Six cents ? You are selling yourself way short. Keep up your good work. 

Edited by toroddfuglesteg - February 10 2011 at 09:56