In the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal

 

And the fans of a genre can be very off-puting when it comes to liking the music - it is difficult (but not impossible) to take EMO seriously when you see some of the fans (http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=56080&PID=3171007#3171007).

QUOTE=Rocktopus]

angelmk wrote: In general FOR TRADEMARK,  his way of generalizing of metal was wrong, saying childish, immature it is.

That's funny. I think you're the one that comes across as childish immature (in general), not Trademark. 

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Did i make up something ? trademark was saying that for 3 days from now,  Did i say somenthing it is not true? tell me. i was just quoting him. 

And can you elaborate this statement of yours becouse i realy don't get it.  what was immature in my sayings, i want to know? 

Rocktopus wrote: Mr ProgFreak wrote: We're childish and passionate music fans, and you and Trademark are grumpy old men. I don't see anything wrong with that. We're positive, you're negative ... yin and yang. I'm not older than you. I'm just defending Trademark's opinions, because I think his words are beingtwisted around and not read properly.

instead of defending trademark opinions , say something from your own!!!  tell your opinion ,let me hear . Let trademark speak for himself. Please . have you read whole debate , if you did, tell me how his words his been twisted? OK, how do you understand Trademark's words? 

ok twist this:

Trademark wrote: My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following: "When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11) One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.  When I was 15 I enjoyed a lot of the metal of the time.  Now I see it for the juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting.  What it is, is COMEDY to anyone who has managed to achieve a bit of emotional maturity.

and all started with this statement. here precisely metal was said to be juvenille genre, which must be grown out(yeah right);  so juvenile = childish call whatever you whant, the same reference, (false one) Comedy ??? of what , listen to for say jazz , or i don't know what, make you more mature person? you achieve emotional maturity with not listening to metal,perhaps? No ,you are wrong again.  No, my fellow. It is free choice. It is personal, What i consider juvenile for me, must not means the same you consider juvenile, trademark dared to GENERALIZE .very wrong. And citing the bible? the worst thing i've ever encountered so far.  How did he understand all that : 

     '''Now I see it forthe juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting. ''''

how came up with this conclusions?  based on what? Metal  is juvenile becouse it is? not need to prove that? becouse it is widely accepted fact? and need not to be proven?  No,No   you and trademark are falling becouse of lack of arguments(proofs)!!! you  cannot say something  is true becouse you say so!!!! Who are you to Judge ?!for metal in this case? 

Trademark wrote: The quote from Corinthians and the use of the words juvenille & adolescent were meant to indicate (perhaps not clearly enough) a fairly well documented stage of physical and intellectual development; one which ends when the processes of body and brain development are complete (around age 20). The actual point I was trying to make is how odd it seems to me that people not only continue to choose music and other forms of entertainment (video games anyone?) that are designed for and marketed to an adolescent mentality.  Make no mistake about it, the marketing research department at the Roadrunner label has more people on it than all the band rosters put together.  This music is "marketing metal", and the target audience is High School boys and it shows.  I enjoyed it and listened to it in my season, but I don't understand adults treating it as if it were something other than what it is in a seemingly desperate attempt to "maintain a youthful spirit".  I really can't see the difference between an adult sitting down to listen to metal and enjoying it and an adult sitting down to watch Barney and enjoying it.  Neither is "age appropriate." The dogged determination to hold onto this part of life both confuses and amuses me.  Its at a pandemic level here in the states.  The idea that you can only be happy if you're young and totally stupid (which we all are at that age) is not so much the problem as the idea that you should never grow out of it.  Metal is a symptom (a hacking, growling cough), not the disease.

how this music is targetting youth only,tell me?!!! when dean said he is 51 and still metal fan, Iron maiden  guys are from 50 - 60 age range, and still rocking ,what keeps them on tack ? man it is love for the music,it is the thing that made them feel live, breath through music man, it is like nektar to them , they have to make music to keep alive. and that music apears to be metal,what an irony ,We came to  another statement of trademark acording to which: he invent the term "age appropriate." music ?  how could you explain this one?  juvenile = childish,as i said? metal was intentened to specific age ? -No, metal is invented up in the 70'  with black sabbath,so people who lived in that period and was young then, should stop listening to it  becouse they grew older? they change their opinion suddenly? no ,man it doesn't go that way. - No, One does what he think is the more apropriate, matter of free choice, liberty of mind is what keeps one , Free spirit, and will to explore more music genres and pick up those which he find apropriate ,and worth spending his precious  time on, you whant to say that we metal lovers spend our time for nothing?wasting it? No,my fellow , metal is worth the attention it deserves. whole of it.  and metal is a diverse genre ,so one can digg for many  years ,,   desperate attempt to "maintain a youthful spirit". - '''you should never grow out of it''' how can one grow out of something you have ben listening for long time? or doing it? would one give up of listening for ex prog? you have been doing in the young age , and one contionues listenting prog rock for ever and ever. that is one like ,no matter how juvenile others think it is . or another example : i have been collecting music for 10 years, would i stop doing it? - no, it satisfies me, it makes me feel great, more happier person when i came across new music.Same as with to say eating chocolate,i loved eating chocolate when i was young, i am still eating chocolate,Why? becouse i like it,it is as tasty as the first time i tried it, loved then , more i like it know.  same with metal, One cannot grow out of it(as trademark stated) becouse it is targetting youth?(according to whom)

So how many of bolded ones above contain the words or phrases  targetting ''age appropriate music''::   juvenile, targetting youth, childish music,  not for adults,  immature,  ?

and What  age have to do with music anyway? you like it or not, it is simple !  

Mr ProgFreak wrote: I don't think this has to do with age ... it's about different mind sets. Maybe you're not old, but your posts in this thread have been so bitter and dead serious ... just like Trademark's. What did metal ever do to you?

i want tot know the same. what metal have done to you hate it so much? 

Please read Rocktopus's post and then read my post, hopefully it will clear the context.  Just for the record, Awaken The Guardian is my favourite FW album,  yes it's not prog metal, but I am not so big on labels and I love metal anyway. 

I know, but Rocktopus seemed to be implying that both those albums are prog metal and I don't agree, that's all. They are metal, of course.  

Rocktopus wrote: ^Pure nonsense. All of it. Trademark wrote: My feelings about metal in general - meaning according to him, and no one else. With this he is telling everyone its his subjective opinion. Read properly.  Of course you, him, I or anyone else can generalize to make a point. Infact its very hard to make a point without generalizing. When you write about something in general, you simply state something, and admit that there are exceptions. (And Trademark never wrote imo metal sucks. Thats just your own way of communicating)

ok, his opinion , who's else?!! . i wasn't objecting on that. In general FOR TRADEMARK,  his way of generalizing of metal was wrong, saying childish, immature it is. that is his opinion, metal is diverse genre and cannot be generalized just like that(i've already said this but i feel the need to say it again). Wrong way of generalizing.   ''you simply state something ''  ok, but this statement of yours(in this case Trademark's must be backed with proof, one cannot state something and argue about it 2 days without giving proper reason for it, ) you have to be specific to make a point ,in our case is neccessary , you can say Nu metal sucks, Grind/death metal sucks..  but whole metal thing ''immature,juvenile,'' - my man have to say  more than this to make a point. his disscussion was all based on this two assuption, or simliar  of his. (which are false,IMO) another thing   i didn't hear from trademark to name some exeption of metal  for him, . I didn't say he did say that ''And Trademark never wrote imo metal suck'', i just gave an nameless example it wasn't intended on him.. but anyway we have to ask him about this one .