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Slartibartfast 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
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Points: 29630
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 Posted: May 06 2008 at 22:04 |
 Dr. Prog wrote:
Slartibartfast wrote:
Here's and interesting question:
What does it really matter which of these developments most affected the course of prog history?
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it matters because I am interested in hearing people's views on the matter. Is that good enough? Why does anyone put any poll up?
For instance, I am surprised that people right now are picking Lake joining ELP, and not more people picking Gilmour joining Floyd.
So I guess chalk it up to curiousity. Its part of my human nature. |
Well, of course, curiosity isn't allowed. To be technically correct Lake didn't join ELP, the three coagulated together. And of course we all know, Gilmore rose through the ranks by assassination. Oh, wait, he didn't kill Syd? Nevermind. Back to the original question, it just really doesn't seem to be something quantifiable. Always fun to try though, eh? Perhaps a better question for you, is there a common thread to all these events?
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 06 2008 at 22:07
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:59 |
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Damo Suzuki joining Can. huge repercussions.
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The Quiet One
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 16 2008
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 15745
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:57 |
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Surely Greg's..
How about Hackett's arrival to Genesis?
Wakeman's arrival to Yes? Or Howe's?
Maybe Gilmour is another good chance, but adding Syd on the note, really don't think that'll work.
Rabin joining Yes?
..
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:49 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
Here's and interesting question:
What does it really matter which of these developments most affected the course of prog history?
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it matters because I am interested in hearing people's views on the matter. Is that good enough? Why does anyone put any poll up?
For instance, I am surprised that people right now are picking Lake joining ELP, and not more people picking Gilmour joining Floyd.
So I guess chalk it up to curiousity. Its part of my human nature.
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 20:41 |
Here's and interesting question: What does it really matter which of these developments most affected the course of prog history? Interesting selection of options though. A few more slots that could have been filled in the poll as others have pointed out. I'm not surprised that the number one option is the most picked. Early events often tend to have effects on the course of things that tend to spread out farther although they can be diluted in the spreading out. I'm going to have to abstain. 
Edited by Slartibartfast - May 06 2008 at 20:42
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 18:59 |
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None of the above.
1. Hammill ending VdGG in 1977 for me, on a personal basis. Hammill soldiered on though and made some excellent solo albums throughout the 1980s.
2. Hammill sacking David Jackson in 2007.
The above are tongue-in-cheek answers by the way.
I don't think Punk or Disco ended prog, I agree with Folly. Prog just became stale on its own accord. Once Punk had come round, it actually breathed new life into prog (of a different kind though) and such bands like Massacre, This Heat and yes, even Marillion, were formed and a new resurgence of prog emerged in the 1980s. It just wasn't referred to as prog at the time.
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:54 |
Which band sang: it's not what you say it's the way that you say it! it's not what you write it's the way that you write it! Whoever it was they were bang on the mark. Let's not descend into surly post territory please.  Next ad hominem post in this thread gets deleted.
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:46 |
Pnoom! wrote:
| As I said, this particular poll is about personnel moves among the top prog bands |
And once I realized this, I made a relevant post.
| BTW, punk didn't kill prog, disco did. |
I never said punk killed prog, I said prog did. 
| Common misperception foisted upon us by Rolling Stone and Mojo magazine critics who hated prog because they sucked at playing musical instruments with any kind of ability. Don't believe everything you read. |
I have never read an issue of Rolling Stone or Mojo in my life.
| this whole thing is an interesting read because much of it is so wacky. |
Do you need to insult every post I make?
| I am not sure where you are pulling much of this music history from, but your "prog was irrelevant" kick borders on manic. |
In terms of it's relevance to the music scene, prog started going downhill around 1974-ish. What's so wacky about that?
| That is some wild weird stuff. You need to put down the Rolling Stone issues for a bit dude........ |
| I have never read an issue of Rolling Stone or Mojo in my life. |
EDIT: mind actually explaining how it's wacky without insults? |
I was going to actually take the time to respond point by point, but when I got to the part about Pink Floyd not really being a progressive rock band, I just decided I don't want to expend the kind of energy it would take for what would have to be an educational history lesson that would be better left for more in depth reading of some music literature and possibly some more in depth listening........like I said, it was an interesting read.
Edited by Dr. Prog - May 06 2008 at 17:47
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JROCHA
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 18 2007
Location: Oakland, KS
Status: Offline
Points: 1501
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:41 |
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When Peter Left Genesis.....enough said.
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Somewhere out of a memory of lighted streets on quiet nights...
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:27 |
| As I said, this particular poll is about personnel moves among the top prog bands |
And once I realized this, I made a relevant post.
| BTW, punk didn't kill prog, disco did. |
I never said punk killed prog, I said prog did.
| Common misperception foisted upon us by Rolling Stone and Mojo magazine critics who hated prog because they sucked at playing musical instruments with any kind of ability. Don't believe everything you read. |
I have never read an issue of Rolling Stone or Mojo in my life.
| this whole thing is an interesting read because much of it is so wacky. |
Do you need to insult every post I make?
| I am not sure where you are pulling much of this music history from, but your "prog was irrelevant" kick borders on manic. |
In terms of it's relevance to the music scene, prog started going downhill around 1974-ish. What's so wacky about that?
| That is some wild weird stuff. You need to put down the Rolling Stone issues for a bit dude........ |
| I have never read an issue of Rolling Stone or Mojo in my life. |
EDIT: mind actually explaining how it's wacky without insults?
Edited by Pnoom! - May 06 2008 at 17:28
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Tony R
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: July 16 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 11979
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26 |
Rocktopus wrote:
Soon after John Lydon failed to impress Henry Cow at the audition, everything changed.
(I'm sure I've read about this somewhere, but I can't find any info about it on google. Am I just making this up?)
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This rings bells with me too. However, I might just be as deluded as you.. Anyone? I'm intrigued now.
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rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 66583
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:26 |
Personal change: John Rutsey decides playing drums in a touring band isn't for him and is replaced by Neil Peart.
2nd: Peter Banks and Tony Kaye replaced by Steve Howe and Rick Wakeman.
From List: All are interesting and had different positive and negative results. I think that Peter Gabriel's leaving Genesis had the most significant impact on the direction of a prog band. The vocalist/frontman is kind of the band's identity and the changing of this identity was quite huge.
For me though these are all in retrospect since they all occurred prior to my becoming an invested listener of any of these bands. The various impacts would probably have been more significant if I were a fan prior to these occurrences.
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:17 |
Pnoom! wrote:
The T wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
Yes releasing Tales from Topographic Oceans. That was the point where prog finally proved the critics right in their complaints, and from there prog ended any real chance at redemption. Punk coming along and striking the final blow didn't matter; prog had already dealt itself a fatal wound. |
I would agree partially.. but from the list, which one would you choose? |
From the list, Fripp ending KC. KC was the one band that had always been the one prog band (well, along with the debatably prog Pink Floyd) that showed restraint and rationality throughout their music. With KC done then, prog was really done (symph prog at least), and that KC reemerged as a non-prog (though still art rock) band in the 80s only compounds this.
Second from this list would be Peter Gabriel going solo, since I would say that marked the point where prog really morphed into proggy pop into pure pop.
A brief discussion of all the options:
Greg Lake leaving King Crimson to join ELP
ELP were always the epitome of prog excess, so this helped define the genre's negative image, and it influenced a lot of bands, but I don't see prog being too different without ELP. King Crimson I don't think was terribly affected by this. I think their sound would've shifted to where it had gone anyway, since Fripp was the key factor.
Bill Bruford leaving Yes to join King Crimson
It made Crimson a better band, didn't really affect Yes. Either way, Bruford would've been one of the key elements in prog, so I don't think this is a terribly important development, though it's nice that he moved to the better band 
Steve Hackett leaving Genesis for solo career
Genesis was going pop anyway, I would imagine SH leaving was more a consequence of their change in sound than a catalyst of said change. I think this is more symbolic than truly important, especially prog was already pretty irrelevant at this point.
Syd Barrett's departure from P Floyd and Gilmour's arrival
I don't think PF was ever enough of a prog band for this to be worth noting. It shaped the history of PF, but PF shaped prog far less than the triumvirate of Yes, Genesis, and King Crimson.
Roger Waters acrimonious departure from Floyd
See my above point with the added point that prog was already pretty irrelevant by the 1980s.
Anderson/Wakeman walking away from Yes at end of 70s
This was after the downfall of prog, as I've said. I would say this is more a function of the downfall (and representative of it) than a cause of it.
Fripp resurrecting KC in the early 80s
This is more symbolic in that the most relevant prog band came back as a non-prog band, pretty much definitively stating that the golden era of prog was done. It may have quenched any chance of a golden era resurrection, and it cleared the way for the neo revival, but I don't think KC coming back as a prog band could've saved prog. It was already dead, and their reappearance as a non-prog band represents that. |
this whole thing is an interesting read because much of it is so wacky. I am not sure where you are pulling much of this music history from, but your "prog was irrelevant" kick borders on manic. That is some wild weird stuff. You need to put down the Rolling Stone issues for a bit dude........
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:15 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Yes releasing Tales from Topographic Oceans. That was the point where prog finally proved the critics right in their complaints, and from there prog ended any real chance at redemption. Punk coming along and striking the final blow didn't matter; prog had already dealt itself a fatal wound. |
As I said, this particular poll is about personnel moves among the top prog bands, otherwise it would turn into a which album is more important thread, which has already been done. BTW, punk didn't kill prog, disco did. Common misperception foisted upon us by Rolling Stone and Mojo magazine critics who hated prog because they sucked at playing musical instruments with any kind of ability. Don't believe everything you read.
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Dr. Prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2008
Status: Offline
Points: 306
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:11 |
tszirmay wrote:
The biggest event is the arrival of the CD . The Golden Years of prog were left for dead in 1978 by which time too many bands were going commercial (Hi there Genee!) . There wouldn't be a PA without the advent of the compact disc (Old proggies getting CD reeditions) , as well as the success of Marillion.
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This poll is restricted to personnel moves among the top prog trailblazer bands of the 70s. Other developments such as the CD, internet etc may be appropriate for another poll (be my guest) but not this one. Having said that, those of us who made prog in the 70s by buying record albums might dispute that, but that is for another thread. All music benefitted from the advent of the CD, so its kind of a moot point. Check out Frank Sinatra's CD sales sometime and you will see what I mean.
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Rocktopus
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2006
Location: Norway
Status: Offline
Points: 4202
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 17:02 |
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Soon after John Lydon failed to impress Henry Cow at the audition, everything changed.
(I'm sure I've read about this somewhere, but I can't find any info about it on google. Am I just making this up?)
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Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:26 |
The T wrote:
Pnoom! wrote:
Yes releasing Tales from Topographic Oceans. That was the point where prog finally proved the critics right in their complaints, and from there prog ended any real chance at redemption. Punk coming along and striking the final blow didn't matter; prog had already dealt itself a fatal wound. |
I would agree partially.. but from the list, which one would you choose? |
From the list, Fripp ending KC. KC was the one band that had always been the one prog band (well, along with the debatably prog Pink Floyd) that showed restraint and rationality throughout their music. With KC done then, prog was really done (symph prog at least), and that KC reemerged as a non-prog (though still art rock) band in the 80s only compounds this.
Second from this list would be Peter Gabriel going solo, since I would say that marked the point where prog really morphed into proggy pop into pure pop.
A brief discussion of all the options:
Greg Lake leaving King Crimson to join ELP
ELP were always the epitome of prog excess, so this helped define the genre's negative image, and it influenced a lot of bands, but I don't see prog being too different without ELP. King Crimson I don't think was terribly affected by this. I think their sound would've shifted to where it had gone anyway, since Fripp was the key factor.
Bill Bruford leaving Yes to join King Crimson
It made Crimson a better band, didn't really affect Yes. Either way, Bruford would've been one of the key elements in prog, so I don't think this is a terribly important development, though it's nice that he moved to the better band
Steve Hackett leaving Genesis for solo career
Genesis was going pop anyway, I would imagine SH leaving was more a consequence of their change in sound than a catalyst of said change. I think this is more symbolic than truly important, especially prog was already pretty irrelevant at this point.
Syd Barrett's departure from P Floyd and Gilmour's arrival
I don't think PF was ever enough of a prog band for this to be worth noting. It shaped the history of PF, but PF shaped prog far less than the triumvirate of Yes, Genesis, and King Crimson.
Roger Waters acrimonious departure from Floyd
See my above point with the added point that prog was already pretty irrelevant by the 1980s.
Anderson/Wakeman walking away from Yes at end of 70s
This was after the downfall of prog, as I've said. I would say this is more a function of the downfall (and representative of it) than a cause of it.
Fripp resurrecting KC in the early 80s
This is more symbolic in that the most relevant prog band came back as a non-prog band, pretty much definitively stating that the golden era of prog was done. It may have quenched any chance of a golden era resurrection, and it cleared the way for the neo revival, but I don't think KC coming back as a prog band could've saved prog. It was already dead, and their reappearance as a non-prog band represents that.
Edited by Pnoom! - May 06 2008 at 16:35
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
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Points: 17493
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:11 |
Pnoom! wrote:
Yes releasing Tales from Topographic Oceans. That was the point where prog finally proved the critics right in their complaints, and from there prog ended any real chance at redemption. Punk coming along and striking the final blow didn't matter; prog had already dealt itself a fatal wound. |
I would agree partially.. but from the list, which one would you choose?
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Pnoom!
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 02 2006
Location: OH
Status: Offline
Points: 4981
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:08 |
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Yes releasing Tales from Topographic Oceans. That was the point where prog finally proved the critics right in their complaints, and from there prog ended any real chance at redemption. Punk coming along and striking the final blow didn't matter; prog had already dealt itself a fatal wound.
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: May 06 2008 at 16:03 |
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Option #1, in the sense that ELP was so enormously important to prog, and I think Lake was an integral piece of that puzzle (though I think the most replacable member, if you could call any of them such).
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Developments which changed course of prog history
