Happy Easter

Reed Lover:

You say, "I have every right to be arrogant and obnoxious.  What do you want me to do?  Pity you and say well if that's what he wants to believe so be it?  That is not how knowledge and wisdom are gained."

First, the very notion of "having a right" to be "arrogant and obnoxious" is absurdist in the extreme.  Being arrogant and obnoxious is not a "right," but a choice.  As noted, your choice to express your arrogance and obnoxiousness freely and liberally is, in my opinion, a bad one - even were you and I on the same side of every issue.  That is, even were I not a believer - and had a completely rational, empirical worldview - and I were engaging tuxon, fragile, dude, JrKASperov et al in this debate from the "other" side, I would not be expressing myself with the same attitide of pride, arrogance, haughtiness, superiority and denigration that you do.

Indeed, you infer that, somehow, if you did not express yourself with the vehemence that you do, we (the believers here) would not "gain" "knowledge and wisdom."  Can't you see how self-defeating that attitude is?  After all, non-believers often accuse believers of attempting to "ram it [Christianity, religion, faith, etc.] down someone's throat"; i.e., rather than evangelizing (i.e., "bringing the Word" - humbly, lovingly, patiently), some believers engage in heavy-handed "proselytizing," which is resented - and properly so - by non-believers.  More to the point, such heavy-handedness only serves to "push people away," not bring them to faith and salvation.

So what makes you think your heavy-handedness is likely to "help" we believers "gain" "knowledge and widsom?"  All your attitude does is "push us away," and ultimately strengthen our faith, and our feeling that, all your protestations to the contrary, you are so invested in your worldview - emotionally, psychologically, etc. - that you will protect and defend it even if all you end up doing is causing others to resent you - which, of course, is self-defeating if you truly want us to "gain" "knowledge and wisdom."  Indeed, it does not say much for your definition of "wisdom" that you engage in such demeaning and insulting behavior.

Finally, although I realize you reject them utterly, I cannot help but be reminded of a few Scriptural passages here:

"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.  For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.'  Where is the wise?  Where is the scribe?  Where is the disputer of this age?  Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?  For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe...Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." (1 Cor 1:18-21, 25)

"But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."  (1 Cor 2:14)

"Let no one deceive himself.  If any one among you seems to be wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise.  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God.  for it is written: 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness.'  And again: 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile."  (1 Cor 3:18-20)

Even if you reject the Scripture, God, and Jesus as the resurrected Son of God, I am betting you still think Jesus was a pretty good person, with some valuable lessons to teach.  If so, how do you square your prideful arrogance and obnoxiousness with some of the things He preached - including love, peace, forgiveness, patience, compassion, selflessness, and especially humility?  Where do these fit in your rational, empirical worldview?  Because it certainly seems that, at least in your "version" of that worldview, there is no place for them at all.

Peace.

Fragile wrote: You are having a laugh Reed the premiership is full of mediocrity.Instead of being the two horse race of the last 12 years it's a 3 horse.I wouldn't go out the back door to watch the rest.Oh and while I'm at it My team played Milan off the park for 42 of the last 45 minutes in Milan

but lost 3-1....

I come from Bolton and I reckon The Trotters would win the SPL with weeks to spare,and then Big Sam would kick your sorry arses over the Jock Stein Stand.

You are having a laugh Reed the premiership is full of mediocrity.Instead of being the two horse race of the last 12 years it's a 3 horse.I wouldn't go out the back door to watch the rest.Oh and while I'm at it My team played Milan off the park for 42 of the last 45 minutes in Milan

Fragile wrote: Sounds good to me Reed I believe both our teams have been knocked out of europe by the same team except the Milanos couldn't beat my team at home.

Ah, that's more like it. Do you know that Poland beat Azerbaijian eight to nil yesterday? That means the Polish eleven has exhausted its goal limit for the next five years within one game. There is a very long tradition that justifies this belief of mine .

Manunkind wrote: Problemy, jakie nastrêcza kategoria dzie³a, s¹ jeszcze trudniejsze. Na pozór - nic prostszego: dzie³em jest suma tekstów daj¹cych siê oznaczyæ jednym imieniem w³asnym. Now Wallace could return and answer the above with his brand or parody of Scots. We'd achieve the same level of communication as is usually achieved in such disputes. When it comes to religion, devout believers and non-believers speak different languages (this is only a very mild exaggeration). Besides, if you can't agree whether a band  is prog or not, how can you expect to reach an agreement in a discussion on fundamental worldviews? And lastly, the Bible, the Talmud, Buddha's teachings and the noblest of purely secular worldviews are all said to be summarised by the cheesy but oh-so-true 'love thy neighbour'. And usually when people start arguing about their worldviews, their very basis contained in that sentence goes out of the window, and these worldviews follow. So just quit it before I start getting any more philosophical here

Continue with your philosophistry,Manunkind........

I do not have a worldview,I'm not even certain I know what that means.Is there a fundamental world view or is it just an empty "buzz-word" or cliche?
But I know what I think,but what I think is not always what I know or believe.

Fragile wrote: Reed, I Believe We have crossed this bridge before.Christ the Messiah was foretold of for many hundreds of years before he came and was witnessed by his followers.You had this same conversation pre Christmas with Maani.Ref Constantine, is this the same Holy Roman Emperor you are speaking of?I thought he was after Christ's death correct me if I am wrong.Christ died to take away the sins of the world and to conquer death so we may all rise at the end of time.You have your views I have mine.However, unlike you, my views have never changed and never will.The image of Christ is everlasting.Why else has it remained so important for so long?To reiterate from earlier I was born with faith and it is something I hold very dear.If you have lost yours then there is only you who can find it again but that is for you to resolve.I will not dispute this matter much more openly.This thread was about a message for Easter.I will discuss all matters with you from music to football but I feel the religious side of things should perhaps be kept more privately.I do not wish to offend you and I'm sure you won't take my comments as such.                                                       Pax vobiscum

Of,course Fragile.There are only certain things that get under my skin.
I have been an atheist for 31 yrs which is roughly 75% of my life,roughly 5 years after I stopped believing in Father Christmas if you catch my drift.I do not walk around with an "I DONT BELIEVE IN FATHER CHRISTMAS" badge pinned to my chest, and that sums up my attitude to God quite nicely.
I bear neither you nor Maani any ill will and would debate Football(that's sawker to you Maani )with you with equal passion and tenacity.Or that black is white................
Caveat Emptor

Reed, I Believe We have crossed this bridge before.Christ the Messiah was foretold of for many hundreds of years before he came and was witnessed by his followers.You had this same conversation pre Christmas with Maani.Ref Constantine, is this the same Holy Roman Emperor you are speaking of?I thought he was after Christ's death correct me if I am wrong.Christ died to take away the sins of the world and to conquer death so we may all rise at the end of time.You have your views I have mine.However, unlike you, my views have never changed and never will.The image of Christ is everlasting.Why else has it remained so important for so long?To reiterate from earlier I was born with faith and it is something I hold very dear.If you have lost yours then there is only you who can find it again but that is for you to resolve.I will not dispute this matter much more openly.This thread was about a message for Easter.I will discuss all matters with you from music to football but I feel the religious side of things should perhaps be kept more privately.I do not wish to offend you and I'm sure you won't take my comments as such.

                                                      Pax vobiscum

Garion81 wrote: Hey Peter!  My computer is down too so I just go and borrow my friends.

That's known as THEFT around these parts! Book 'im, Danbo!

(see the "Who has done time" thread)

Actually, your lack of an apostrophe for "friends" implies that you borrowed some human beings....

Pedantically,

P.

Reed Lover wrote: JrKASperov wrote: Oh do not believe I believe without sufficient proof  Then keep on taking The Tablets,JrK! If you have proof that God exists I suggest you go and see a psychiatrist as soon as possible.Oh and would you like to buy some magic beans off me.......

Actually Jesus has just appeared in the Main Discussion Area,I'm just off to "crucify" him!

I kid you not!