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Certif1ed 
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 Posted: October 04 2007 at 02:59 |
 darqdean wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Since this site claims to be English only, then it seems to me we should use correct English (I know, my spelling is horrendous). Progressive is a real word that is defined in the dictionary so that it can be referenced to clarify things or settle an argument.
Making up words like Prog (or prog) and giving them arbitrary definitions is confusing and no help to those who are new to English. Besides, I don't mean to be dramatic, but arbitrarily rewritting definitions seems a bit Orwellian and is an easy way to distort history.
It just seems silly to say that prog is anything but short for progressive. |
In as much as I would agree with you semantically. When a word is used to prefix a style of music it's original meaning becomes moot. For example Pop-Music was originally intended to signify Popular Music, Folk-Music has little to do with the dictionalry definition of the world Folk, where is the soul in Soul? and there is nothing classical about modern Classical music. (I'll stop here before we even begin to consider the etymological root of the word Jazz  ) |
The thing you've hit on there is that the meaning of a musical genre label changes over time, until it becomes a joke - a watered-down and meaningless interpretation of the original use, which was reasonably accurate.
Pop music still signifies Popular music, doesn't it? It's not a style, it's just anything that happens to be popular and enters popular charts compiled by people with an interest in popular music. There seem to be some who are intent on describing music as sounding "poppish" (or even "popish" - music for the pope?) - but what does that mean?
Folk music is essentially music produced by untutored people - literally, music of the people. There was a tradition of this going back many centuries, hence "folk" came to mean "Traditional folk" rather than the dicitionary definition - but, as can be seen, most Pop music is folk music. A more accurate example of modern day folk music would be football stadium chants or nursery rhymes.
Classical is also just a watered-down and misused term - even academics and professors that use it in the incorrect sense will acknowledge its misuse. It's become convenient to distinguish Pop/Rock music from Orchestral/Choral music with this word, rather than invent a new, more accurate one.
So it is with "Progressive". Originally, it meant something. Now, it means something only to whoever happens to be using it, and more often than not, in reference to a style rather than an overall approach.
NB: There is no such thing as "correct" English. The English language is in a permanent state of flux - that is both one of its beauties, and the hardest thing for non-Native speakers to grasp. The OED adds hundreds, if not thousands of new entries each year.
For example, the verb "Google" has pretty much replaced "search", in terms of the internet.
Then there's the verbs "Blog", "chill", the noun "Chill pill", and so on.
"Chill" does not actually mean to make cooler, any more than "cool" meant anything to do with physical temperature when applied to jazz in the late 1940s. Oddly enough, people could refer to the same piece of music as "cool" or "hot"... 
Edited by Certif1ed - October 04 2007 at 03:01
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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Raff
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Posted: October 04 2007 at 02:40 |
raindance2007 wrote:
There's no such thing as prog rock. It's called progressive rock and is a mix of jazz and rock and started in the late 60s and ended in the early 80s ;) |
Unfortunately, in the arts things don't 'start' and 'end' as if in a sports race. As to progressive rock being a mix of jazz and rock, I'm afraid you are on the wrong track... What about classical music? ELP weren't influenced by jazz  ...
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raindance2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 23:19 |
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There's no such thing as prog rock. It's called progressive rock and is a mix of jazz and rock and started in the late 60s and ended in the early 80s ;)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 15:44 |
Yep, who can believe Wikipedia 100%?
But at the end the difference is so tiny that botth terms are apparently used as synonymouus........BTW: You are right, neither an expert neither care about Emo, was only an example.
Iván
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 14:37 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Darqdean wrote:
| emo ≠ screamo; emo = emotional |
According to some research, emo is an abbreviatiopn for Screamo that is at teh same time an abbreviation for Scream + Emotional = Emotional Scream = Screamo and later Emo.
Always the simplest acronyme is the one that survives.
But I may also be wrong
Iván |
Wiki claims screamo evolved from emo & punk hardcore, the two terms later becoming interchangeable. Meh, who can trust wiki? I certainly remember hearing the term emo in the mid-90's long before screamo. But I doubt either of us are experts on a genre that's an anathema to most people here.
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What?
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 14:37 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
I am into music because I enjoy it. If I get a little silly, it's because I like to have a little fun. I mean no disrespect. 
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Hopefully it is all for fun, I like talking about music and I go to this web site to relax and get away from stressful reality  Most of the people on this site are cool and can chat without being jerks, thats a good thing. Besides I'm a musicology addict and there are some people on here that have good info.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 14:21 |
Darqdean wrote:
| emo ≠ screamo; emo = emotional |
According to some research, emo is an abbreviatiopn for Screamo that is at teh same time an abbreviation for Scream + Emotional = Emotional Scream = Screamo and later Emo.
Always the simplest acronyme is the one that survives.
But I may also be wrong
Iván
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Slartibartfast
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Joined: April 29 2006
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 13:35 |
I am into music because I enjoy it. If I get a little silly, it's because I like to have a little fun. I mean no disrespect.
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Raff
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 13:09 |
bhikkhu wrote:
^^^ This is all very true, but the labels are basically here for our users' benefit. It is a way for people who come to P.A. to more easily navigate our enormous database. The specific names themselves don't matter as much as the information they house. Sure, we want to have titles that best describe the music (and that leads to much debate), but it is the music itself that is most important. |
One important thing to understand when talking about the arts (including literature) is that labelling is used extensively in all of them, so that it is an integral part of any kind of research on those subjects. In my PhD dissertation, which deals with the topic of fairy tales, I am using all kinds of classification, because this is the way things are supposed to be. What we do here on PA, in spite of the criticism we may have received, is no different from what scholars have been doing for years in classifying the various folktale types - with the purpose of helping people navigate a genre which is extremely diverse. They may have sometimes gone a bit overboard, but what they did was absolutely necessary - as our genre-labelling is as well.
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 12:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Making up words like Prog (or prog) and giving them arbitrary definitions is confusing and no help to those who are new to English. Besides, I don't mean to be dramatic, but arbitrarily rewritting definitions seems a bit Orwellian and is an easy way to distort history.
It just seems silly to say that prog is anything but short for progressive. |
1.- Nobody is making words, Prog is just an abbreviation for PROGRSSIVE ROCK, we use lots in other genres and nobody says a word, lets see some:
- Popular = POP: Even when the term has evolved into something different that just popularity.
- R&B = Rhythm and Blues
- Emo = Screamo
- Indie = Independent
2.- Yes, we can rewrite and redefine genres because in this moment Prog Archives is the lead site in the web, hardly anybody has a database with all the information we provide, we try to keep ahead, a few months ago the Symphonic Team coined the term Symphonic Renaissance to refer to the Swedish movement of the 90's, today I read it everywhere, people believes us because we have credibility, we have to do our best to keep it this way.
3.- Prog is not a short word for progressive, Prog is a short word for Progressive Rock, as simple as this.
If we added every progressive band like lets say REM, U2, etc, we would loose credibility, because our target auduience are the Progressive Rock fans.
Prog fans come here to learn about Progressive rock and being so open that we allow any band that is a bit ahead the mainstream inside, will make us loose identity, in the way we are doing the things, we are the N° 1 site in the net...........Why place all what we have gained in risk?
Iván |
Can I say,  spot on? For me it's only an abbreviation.
Edited by Slartibartfast - October 03 2007 at 12:52
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 12:47 |
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emo ≠ screamo; emo = emotional
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What?
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bhikkhu
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Joined: April 06 2006
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 12:46 |
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^^^ This is all very true, but the labels are basically here for our users' benefit. It is a way for people who come to P.A. to more easily navigate our enormous database. The specific names themselves don't matter as much as the information they house. Sure, we want to have titles that best describe the music (and that leads to much debate), but it is the music itself that is most important.
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Easy Money
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Joined: August 11 2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 12:45 |
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Well I'll certainly agree with you in that I'm not interested in over exposed bands like REM and U2, talented as they may be.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Joined: April 27 2004
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 12:08 |
Easy Money wrote:
Making up words like Prog (or prog) and giving them arbitrary definitions is confusing and no help to those who are new to English. Besides, I don't mean to be dramatic, but arbitrarily rewritting definitions seems a bit Orwellian and is an easy way to distort history.
It just seems silly to say that prog is anything but short for progressive. |
1.- Nobody is making words, Prog is just an abbreviation for PROGRSSIVE ROCK, we use lots in other genres and nobody says a word, lets see some:
- Popular = POP: Even when the term has evolved into something different that just popularity.
- R&B = Rhythm and Blues
- Emo = Screamo
- Indie = Independent
2.- Yes, we can rewrite and redefine genres because in this moment Prog Archives is the lead site in the web, hardly anybody has a database with all the information we provide, we try to keep ahead, a few months ago the Symphonic Team coined the term Symphonic Renaissance to refer to the Swedish movement of the 90's, today I read it everywhere, people believes us because we have credibility, we have to do our best to keep it this way.
3.- Prog is not a short word for progressive, Prog is a short word for Progressive Rock, as simple as this.
If we added every progressive band like lets say REM, U2, etc, we would loose credibility, because our target auduience are the Progressive Rock fans.
Prog fans come here to learn about Progressive rock and being so open that we allow any band that is a bit ahead the mainstream inside, will make us loose identity, in the way we are doing the things, we are the N° 1 site in the net...........Why place all what we have gained in risk?
Iván
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 11:41 |
cuncuna wrote:
Prog simply doesn't exist as a term for me. In spanish, if I say "prog" I'm saying nothing. The terms here can be "Rock (...) Progresivo" o "Rock sinfónico". Due to society's lack of interest, the subgenres discussed here are nothing but labels for iTunes or winamp that everybody laughs about. |
Well, here we refer to Prog everyday, and we live just above your country in the map.
Iván
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Dean
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Joined: May 13 2007
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 10:46 |
Ghost Rider wrote:
Actually, the whole purpose of my question lies here. Since the name 'prog' has been emptied of all its former connotations - that is, music that was more complex and had more 'intellectual' claims than simpler, blues-based rock'n'roll - by it we have come to mean something that reminds us of that kind of music, which was popular in the early Seventies and then became very much a cult genre. This means that a lot of prog is NOT progressive at all, while there is a lot of music around that is genuinely progressive - yet, we say it's not prog. |
 I think we should officially call that Raffaella's Prog Paradox.
Ghost Rider wrote:
Personally, I feel this is becoming a bit of an exercise in pigeonholing, as well as a question of exaggerated purism on the part of some people. As I said in an earlier post, if we only consider bands whose sound harks back to the Seventies, we should delete half of the acts in the Database. If, instead, we accept the word 'prog' as a short form of 'progressive', we should be much more inclusive in our addition policy.
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I agree wholeheartedly, however I think the simple answer is "you cannot". Even though the noun has adopted a different meaning from the adjective, it has been in common usage for too long for us to suddenly redefine its meaning. And even if you could that would not change a single opinion as to what constitutes a progressive band and what does not. Rather, we should "out-law" the use of the words completely when describing bands ... I would prefer that people gave considered and well reasoned explanations as to why a certain bands should be included or excluded than answering with a glib "They're Prog" or "They're not Prog"
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 10:25 |
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As for "jazz", Miles hated the word and would never use it.
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 10:24 |
darqdean wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Since this site claims to be English only, then it seems to me we should use correct English (I know, my spelling is horrendous). Progressive is a real word that is defined in the dictionary so that it can be referenced to clarify things or settle an argument. Making up words like Prog (or prog) and giving them arbitrary definitions is confusing and no help to those who are new to English. Besides, I don't mean to be dramatic, but arbitrarily rewritting definitions seems a bit Orwellian and is an easy way to distort history. It just seems silly to say that prog is anything but short for progressive. |
In as much as I would agree with you semantically. When a word is used to prefix a style of music it's original meaning becomes moot. For example Pop-Music was originally intended to signify Popular Music, Folk-Music has little to do with the dictionalry definition of the world Folk, where is the soul in Soul? and there is nothing classical about modern Classical music. (I'll stop here before we even begin to consider the etymological root of the word Jazz ) |
You have a good point there, all those words are regularly misused. Classical is probably the most misused. Classical refers to a specific period in concert hall music (Mozart and Haydn etc) When people use the word classical to refer to baroque, romantic or modern concert hall works they are misusing the word. The correct definition is concert hall music.
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Easy Money
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 10:15 |
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I have no interest in changing this site, but if it was up to me I would use the literal definition of progressive and be more inclusive.
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Raff
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Posted: October 03 2007 at 10:09 |
darqdean wrote:
Easy Money wrote:
Since this site claims to be English only, then it seems to me we should use correct English (I know, my spelling is horrendous). Progressive is a real word that is defined in the dictionary so that it can be referenced to clarify things or settle an argument.
Making up words like Prog (or prog) and giving them arbitrary definitions is confusing and no help to those who are new to English. Besides, I don't mean to be dramatic, but arbitrarily rewritting definitions seems a bit Orwellian and is an easy way to distort history.
It just seems silly to say that prog is anything but short for progressive. |
In as much as I would agree with you semantically. When a word is used to prefix a style of music it's original meaning becomes moot. For example Pop-Music was originally intended to signify Popular Music, Folk-Music has little to do with the dictionalry definition of the world Folk, where is the soul in Soul? and there is nothing classical about modern Classical music. (I'll stop here before we even begin to consider the etymological root of the word Jazz ) |
Actually, the whole purpose of my question lies here. Since the name 'prog' has been emptied of all its former connotations - that is, music that was more complex and had more 'intellectual' claims than simpler, blues-based rock'n'roll - by it we have come to mean something that reminds us of that kind of music, which was popular in the early Seventies and then became very much a cult genre. This means that a lot of prog is NOT progressive at all, while there is a lot of music around that is genuinely progressive - yet, we say it's not prog. Personally, I feel this is becoming a bit of an exercise in pigeonholing, as well as a question of exaggerated purism on the part of some people. As I said in an earlier post, if we only consider bands whose sound harks back to the Seventies, we should delete half of the acts in the Database. If, instead, we accept the word 'prog' as a short form of 'progressive', we should be much more inclusive in our addition policy.
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Progressive vs Prog
