Bad? or really just not your thing? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 12:10

I have a problem with people calling Queen - Hot Space "rubbish" (just an aribtrarily chosen example) ... reason: There are far worse albums than that one. It deserves at least 2 stars by any standard, given that 1 star is the lowest rating available in the archives.

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clarke2001 View Drop Down

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:51

Hm-mm..
Hm.

The albums "Close To The Edge" and "Dark Side Of The Moon", recognised as masterpieces by many, mean nothing to me. I just don't like them, I think they are way too overrated etc etc... and I could live happily ever after without listening to them ever again.

However, I would not rate them with one star - because I can hear, feel and analyse a certain story/skill/atmosphere going there - millions of fans can't be (that) wrong. These albums will get three stars from me, or two in the worst case. They're not rubbish, they're just not my cup of tea, and I respect that certain artism presented there - regardless of my disliking for it.

Speaking of rubbish...on the other hand...
If some album is so bad that, in my opinion, deserves one star, and basically it's rubbish, why should I hesitate to call it rubbish?

I'm a big fan of ELP, Zeppelin, Queen...and if someone rate "Love Beach", "In Through The Out Door" or "Hot Space" with one star and explicitly call it "rubbish", "junk" or use a phrase like "it sucks", I - as a fan - won't get offended. These albums are below all standards, and although I would personally rate them with two/three stars, I could understand why are they "junk" to someone.

So, I'm wond'ring again, why should I hesitate to call a really bad album "rubbish"?

To be respectful to the musicians?

Even some artist/band made statements like "that album of ours is rubbish...it was a mistake...we did it only for money...we wish we never published that". There are numerous examples in the history of rock.

No matter how harsh I might be while reviewing something (and I'm not that harsh), no matter how hard I try to imply that a certain album is "rubbish", it will always remain just my personal opinion.

So, if someone want to rate "Brain Salad Surgery" (5 star in my book) with one star, or to label it as "rubbish", so be it. Progressive rock represents such a wide variety of styles, and human beings (even only within the realm of prog fans) have such a wide tastes, that I can easily imagine there's a person (prog fan!) who think BSS is rubbish worth one star (although the reasons why that person dislikes it are beyond my perception).

In conclusion:

When we have a childish attempt to bash one band, giving one star rating to all of the band's albums, the usual reaction is "(s)he is entitled to his/her opinion...let's delete the ranting reviews and leave the ratings".

No!!!

Let's delete rating without reviews and leave those reviews if they are good enough to justify an opinion. If you think ELP, Tarkus, Trilogy and BSS are all rubbish, fine. Say it. But tell us why.

Edited by clarke2001 - April 26 2007 at 11:56

Percussion, sir!

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:48

The ratings system here is quite unique - some find it hard to adjust to a system where we're not awarding "points out of 5".

Obviously, much of a review will be based on taste - and it's difficult, if not impossible to be completely objective about music. On the whole, Prog fans are intelligent enough to understand how this site rates albums, and some just excercise their own freedom of choice to ignore it and do their own thing.

The body of the review is always the giveaway: I tend to ignore blatant bashings or drooling fanboys because I'm most interested in the music itself: Thoughtfully written reviews are always best - not necessarily those done by an "expert" - as they provide useful information into why someone likes or dislikes a certain piece or album.

It's been recently proven that, out of a group of expert farmers, not one was able to guess the exact weight of a bull at an auction.

I think that says something about experts - and bull...

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

Sean Trane View Drop Down

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:39

altaeria wrote:

Of course, I realize that this isn't even close to a perfect system...

but it could help keep unwarranted LOW ratings to a minimum.

The last thing I want to see is the average ratings for albums go upwards. I want low ratings (with reviews) to be numerous!!! This is the only way to tell an excellent album from a good album

They are already way too high, because fans rate what they adore and not what they dislike. There are some absurdly high rated albums. This is especially true for new prog: there are people giving 5* to DT albums while not having listened to it fully once.

Ratings for new albums should not be allowed before two or three months after their releases.

And still that wouldn't stop the lack of credibility. Albums should be rated according/compared to the whole genre really with historical implications. I realize this would disadvantage most new albums, but in 20 years' time, how will MTV, TOOL, TFK or Opeth rate? Not nearly quite as high as they are today.

I think I only rated three 06 albums (and none before four or five months after their releases) and I rated only one 07 album (the Real Time live album of VdGG, of which I've known everysong for at least 10 years bar the two from the 04 album Present)

Would everyone be doing that, I think that the average ratings would gain a lot of credibility.

Until then.............

let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword

FruMp

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:27

I think things balance out really, the truly classic albums will have less haters than the great or just good albums.

the proportion of 1 and 2 star reviews compared to the total reviewing population is almost a way to measure quality in itself, you couldn't find many haters of close to the edge.

Wilcey

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:17

chopper wrote:

chimpanzee a violin and recorded it for an hour, but even then someone would probably like it.

I do hope you're not being chimpist Chopper.......I might get snarly if you 'dis' the chimps!!!

chopper

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 11:03

There's no such thing as a bad album, there's just ones you like and ones you don't like.

I guess really discordant music could be described as "bad", e.g. if you gave a chimpanzee a violin and recorded it for an hour, but even then someone would probably like it.

Mellotron Storm View Drop Down

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:49

I couldn't agree more with what you just said. If i give a 3 star rating to something that has a lot of 5 star ratings,i have to explain why,sometimes it's the genre that's not one of my favourites,or it might not fit my tastes.I do feel i have to give my opinion and review it though.On the other hand, how can you give a classic album 1 or 2 stars is beyond me.

"The wind is slowly tearing her apart"

"Sad Rain" ANEKDOTEN

Wilcey

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:42

ok Altaeria,
this is one of my main bug bears..... people calling an album "rubbish" because they don't like it. it's been discussed and argued about over and over and over....... that's not to say it doesn't warrant a HUGE amount of discussion from time to time.....

Good old fashioned courtesy seems to be out moded, if somone doesn't like my fav band thats perfectly fine..... I don't happen to get along with King Crimson, I have tried but it's not my bag...... if they say my fav band is rubbish, or an album is poorly executed just becuase they don't like it I get snarly....... but that achieves nothing. Taste is objective, different likes and dislikes are what make us interesting..... but it's immature and pointless to write off what we don't like.

pet subject really...... still I don't think we'll ever change things.......!!!

altaeria

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Posted: April 26 2007 at 10:29

I understand that reviews are Subjective in nature...

but I find it silly when somebody trashes legitimately quality material.

We DO realize the difference between an actual BAD album

and one that just doesn't fit our tastes, DON'T WE?

Take, for instance, the 2-star reviews for "Sgt. Pepper's" ...

or those reviewers who simply dislike bands like VDGG or KC or ELP

and proceed to rate ALL their albums with 1 or 2 stars.

I get it. You don't like them ... but 1 star for "Brain Salad Surgery"?

Am I supposed to respect your reviews after that...on a Prog site??

It's just difficult to take that seriously--and I want to respect all reviewers.

So how could this sort of thing be sorted out ideally?

I think, in most cases, the problem lies with general GENRE preferences.

So maybe the ratings system could include extra selection buttons (besides the stars)

that look something like this:

O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Zeuhl

O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Symphonic

O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Progressive Metal

O This is not my cup of tea ... I prefer Post Rock

... etc.

and each album's page could show a total of the these responses.

Now, what would this accomplish?

First off --- It might help give readers an indication of

whether or not an album's style suits them before they even look at any reviews.

If a reader prefers ProgFolk ...

and the page shows that 17 other ProgFolk fans already checked that this album "wasn't their cup of tea"

it gives a pretty good indication that this will probably NOT be to the reader's liking either.

Second --- It could help keep some reviewers from looking downright silly.

I don't know about anybody else...

but I tend to NOT respect (and ultimately ignore) reviewers who bash top-notch stuff.

It's one thing to respectfully say that "Relayer" is litle busy or maybe disjointed, even for a Yes fan...

but it's hard for me to take you serious when you give it a "for collectors only" rating

(because, deep down, you prefer blues-based Psychedelia).

"For collectors only" ?? Collectors of what? We're still talking about Prog, right?

Wouldn't it make more sense to just check off the "I prefer Psychedelic" rating and move on.

Of course, I realize that this isn't even close to a perfect system...

but it could help keep unwarranted LOW ratings to a minimum.

Not that I expect anything to change, though. I don't even know why I really care.

It must be my mild autism acting up again.