Great ELP Debate

I've got to agree with you about a lot of points there Arcer - we'd be about the same age. I remember seeing my first proper gig (Genesis on the TOTT tour) and getting home afterwards in time to catch the Sex Pistols on So It Goes. At the time I hated the Pistols, but at a party a few months later a lethal combination of Woodpecker Cider and Players Number 6 convinced me of the benefits of Anarchy In The UK (and also the 12" version of le Freak).

BUT - I don't think punk had that much effect on the big prog acts. Pink Floyd's Animals material had been around a couple of years before they recorded it, when the Pistols were still but a gleam in Malcolm Mclaren's eye. At the height of punk's ascendancy, ELP had massive hits in both the singles and album charts with Works Vol 1, Yes achieved the same with Going For The One, Genesis had a big hit with Wind And Wuthering and Jethro Tull did well with Heavy Horses. Admittedly, the music press were (IMO rightly) much more interested in the nascent punk/new wave scene, but if you look at the album charts for 77 - 78, punk had surprisingly little impact beyond Never Mind... and the Clash's first effort. Punk and disco had a huge impact on what had been a rather moribund singles market, but prog was never really about singles.

Punk did have a big impact on the less commercially successful prog acts, particularly the Canterbury scene. For much of the 1970s these bands had toured smaller venues and student's unions and there was a well established circuit for them. Punk acts had much less equipment to lug around (few used keyboards, and certainly not the huge banks favoured by prog acts). They were smaller, cheaper and effectively took over the circuit that had sustained bands like Gryphon, Henry Cow, Soft Machine and so on. Some simply focussed their efforts on continental Europe (which had always been a more lucrative market for that style of music), others simply called it a day.

As for the ELP question - it is a question of personal taste. For me they're rather like Queen. Some of the material makes me cringe (Pictures, any of their allegedly 'humorous' songs) but I can't wholly dislike any band who went so completely, magnificently over the top. The world would be a poorer place without Tarkus and Karn Evil 9, as would my music collection.

"Tales,  anything ELP did (), possibly Lamb (tho I think it's their finest work) were impossibly extravagant pieces of self-involved do doo that to a greater or lessr degree excluded all but the most dedicated (I particularly think this of Tales). "

Hence, you turn to punk?

Please. Talk about devolution. There's a big difference between being defiant like Tales was and being defiant like Never mind the Bollocks, was.

Figure it out first, then assault prog.

Gaston

Lunarscape wrote: Pixel The Division Bell's are ringing harder and harder here. I saw a program on EUROCHANNEL the other day on the multitalented band called BACK STREET BOYS !   They had 2-3 great years in the midia, touring and selling millions of their trash. At the end of the story they were given U$ 40 thousand each by the producer. This chap keept the rest of the U$ 20 million for himself since allegedly thats was the leftovers from his investment plus expenses ! ! ! ! So they made a new deal in 2002 and believe me, the world has since been spared from this junk. Reminds me of Grand Funk Railroad...They (GFR) found out that the producer, Terry Knight had run away with the profit of a solid selling album career and had to do "Locomotion" in order to make money ! Hey guys...Grand Funk Railroad could be listed here too ________ Lunar  .

Bands taking their business matters into their own hands  to a greater and greater degree now in the internet age is the best thing to happen to the business side of the music scene since previously shady managers and production companies could nearly bring a band to their knees with their crooked ways and if the band finally managed to secure a good deal with a reputable company,they often found themselves shackled for a decade or more by unfair contracts. And bowing down to commercial demands was so much more tempting,understandably, if you were at the mercy of conventional record companies and were dependent on them to market your music and give you advances for recording new albums and touring. Mike Oldfield ran into difficulty when he had made the brilliant "Amarok" album since Virgin refused to release it since it wasn't "commercial enough". That hadn't bothered them in the 70's when they signed Mike in the first place,then he was given complete artistic freedom and great music consequently ensued. But by the late 80's everything was all about sales figures and target audiences and being played on MTV,the single most destructive factor in the 80's music scene,so Virgin wouldn't release what is undoubtedly Mike's best album since "Tubular Bells" and a true masterpiece of creativity. That's how bad things had gotten by then. Mike had to fight a fierce battle with Virgin to get "Amarok" released,to the point where it actually affected his mental state,which was never that stable to begin with, to quite a damaging degree. No wonder he was glad to get out of the contract with them! 

I forgot where I was going with this ,but at least I got some agression at those Virgin morons out of my system,which is always therapeutic.

Pixel The Division Bell's are ringing harder and harder here. I saw a program on EUROCHANNEL the other day on the multitalented band called BACK STREET BOYS !   They had 2-3 great years in the midia, touring and selling millions of their trash. At the end of the story they were given U$ 40 thousand each by the producer. This chap keept the rest of the U$ 20 million for himself since allegedly thats was the leftovers from his investment plus expenses ! ! ! ! So they made a new deal in 2002 and believe me, the world has since been spared from this junk.

Reminds me of Grand Funk Railroad...They (GFR) found out that the producer, Terry Knight had run away with the profit of a solid selling album career and had to do "Locomotion" in order to make money ! Hey guys...Grand Funk Railroad could be listed here too

________

Lunar  .

Lunarscape wrote: Man, things get worse and worse sometimes. For people that likes good music, that is Prog Rock, ELP is one of the secure cornerstones of Prog Rock fundamentals. As Pixel stated, They stuffed their songs so full of emotion,musicianship and just sheer showmanship that it sometimes can take your breath away. ELP is the band with one of the most steadygoing talent in history of Prog Rock. Its needless to describe or ramble about the individual talent of the trio. Music is  culture expressed in form of rythm, melody and harmony, it can be beautiful and it can be ugly, depending on the cultural background of whom listen to it. ELP is definitly one of the greater contributors to fine music and made a lot of us seek the original classics. Prog Rock wasnt killed by Punk Rock or by Prog Rock, it was put aside by journalists bribed by record companies to promote Trailer Park Trash counter culture. It was about markets and making fast bucks on suckers who comsumed this trash. So where did that lead us in terms of music ! ? Those who answered Mariah Carey and Brittney Spears or Eminem, for that matter, are correct ! There is no talent what so ever in the music shoved down our ears, after the late 70ies, by the big record companies. The note posted by 3F is perfect and its a pity some of you didnt get the point. Its tough to rehearse hours after hours, seeking perfection, selling records, managing tour-schedules and having not such a great contract with your record company. You still deliver some high-level music and bribed of critics dont even mention you because newspapers only talk about Punk and praise pseudo-musicians that play 2 or 3 chord music that doesnt span over 2 minutes ! ! ! When we discus music, prog fans praise the inicial seductive elements of albums, we discuss emotional impacts of certain passages of the progression of a song and surely applaud the effort the musicians put into their work. Being the root of everything classic music played on rock instrumentation, and a major degree of difficulty in the execution of the bits and parts of the song. ELP has all the grandeur any prog band ever wanted to have. Saying that BSS is hateful is simply denying the very essence of Prog Rock. __________ Lunar

Well said,Lunar. I think I too would have been a bit miffed if I had taken the time to hone my musical skills to the peak of perfection,and endeavoured to be original,imaginative,creative and intelligent in my music with the result that almost the entire music press laughs at me and instead fawns over some tonedeaf 18 year olds who only picked up a guitar last week! I think I would have been more than a bit miffed actually.

Has a band divided opinion more than ELP I wonder??

If there is, it's Rush.

Hey Matt, better not mess with Neil Diamond!

Reed Lover wrote: Wrath_of_Ninian wrote: By the way, to whoever wrote about it, I dont really believe punk wiped out Prog Rock - and especially not ELP (who did a fairly good job wiping themselves out...)  Most of the established prog bands started releasing terrible music (like Love Beach, Tormato, etc), and I would wager most genuine prog fans turned to new wave metal bands like Iron Maiden and the like Most of the prog fans turned to Rush, then Marillion as their saviours. By this time ELP were busking outside  Salvation Army Hostels, playing folk tunes and stinking of piss.

 Reed, you have a way with words, old chap..

I've never been a fan to be honest, although I have a lot of respect for ELP as musicians. I think they were among the most talented in the biz. I remember seeing a live performance of theirs at the Isle of Wight festival ( I think) and Carl Palmer done the most brilliant drum solo. Techincal, frenzied and very visual.

John Peel described them as 'a waste of talent and electricity' and my limited exposure to their music leads me to agree partially. I have BSS. I bought it years ago, thouhgt it was ok, but not good enough to hold my attention. I have hardly ever played it. I will give it another spin TODAY. I also bought 'EL & Powell' when it was released - quite liked 'Touch & Go' but thought that was mostly awful, with the exception of 'The Score' and 'The Miracle' Their rendition of Holsts 'Mars the bringer of war' is unforgivable!

As for 'Pictures at an Exhibition' I thought that album was simply laughable. I'm not keen on rock bands reproducing classical music, just to prove they can.

In short, great musicians who never made the music I would have liked them to, but hey they were successful, they had a large audience, and I'm sure they dont lose sleep over me not liking them.

Man, things get worse and worse sometimes. For people that likes good music, that is Prog Rock, ELP is one of the secure cornerstones of Prog Rock fundamentals. As Pixel stated, They stuffed their songs so full of emotion,musicianship and just sheer showmanship that it sometimes can take your breath away. ELP is the band with one of the most steadygoing talent in history of Prog Rock. Its needless to describe or ramble about the individual talent of the trio. Music is  culture expressed in form of rythm, melody and harmony, it can be beautiful and it can be ugly, depending on the cultural background of whom listen to it. ELP is definitly one of the greater contributors to fine music and made a lot of us seek the original classics.

Prog Rock wasnt killed by Punk Rock or by Prog Rock, it was put aside by journalists bribed by record companies to promote Trailer Park Trash counter culture. It was about markets and making fast bucks on suckers who comsumed this trash. So where did that lead us in terms of music ! ? Those who answered Mariah Carey and Brittney Spears or Eminem, for that matter, are correct ! There is no talent what so ever in the music shoved down our ears, after the late 70ies, by the big record companies.

The note posted by 3F is perfect and its a pity some of you didnt get the point. Its tough to rehearse hours after hours, seeking perfection, selling records, managing tour-schedules and having not such a great contract with your record company. You still deliver some high-level music and bribed of critics dont even mention you because newspapers only talk about Punk and praise pseudo-musicians that play 2 or 3 chord music that doesnt span over 2 minutes ! ! !

When we discus music, prog fans praise the inicial seductive elements of albums, we discuss emotional impacts of certain passages of the progression of a song and surely applaud the effort the musicians put into their work. Being the root of everything classic music played on rock instrumentation, and a major degree of difficulty in the execution of the bits and parts of the song.

ELP has all the grandeur any prog band ever wanted to have. Saying that BSS is hateful is simply denying the very essence of Prog Rock.

__________

Lunar