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Certif1ed 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
 Posted: May 03 2007 at 02:57 |
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Indeed - science can prove that the bumblebee cannot, in fact fly.
The bumblebee does not know this...
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21679 |
Posted: May 03 2007 at 01:57 |
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 Of course I'm keeping an eye on this thread ... but what would be the point in starting the whole discussion again? Ultimately these arguments are decided by our ears, not by theoretical considerations. |
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Certif1ed
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 08 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 7559 |
Posted: May 02 2007 at 17:16 |
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Shhh!
Mike might hear you!
(I totally agree, BTW).
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The important thing is not to stop questioning.
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tardis
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: October 02 2005 Location: Victoria, BC Status: Offline Points: 14378 |
Posted: May 02 2007 at 15:20 |
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Vinyl ~ best for sound.
CD ~ best for convenience. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: May 01 2007 at 11:59 |
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Of course, analog is miles beyond. |
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Chicapah
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 14 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8238 |
Posted: May 01 2007 at 10:21 |
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When I got married 4 years ago and I moved in with my new wife the only place to put my 6 orange crates of LPs was in a closet so small that I couldn't get to my records without taking everything out of said closet (my wife is a pack rat so you do the math) which usually turned into an hour-long (at a minimum) ordeal. About 5 months ago I decided to go back and write reviews of my catalogue of progressive rock so I started listening to vinyl again. I have to say that the "warmth" concept of analog records is true. It's not a myth or a figment of nostalgic imagination. I still enjoy cds just fine but last weekend I put on my pristine copy of ELO's "Eldorado" and was blown away by the rich depth I was hearing. Now, I don't have a hi-fi system to brag about (Sony amp, JBL speakers, Fisher turntable) but it's not a heap by any means. It's a real treat to hear albums this way. I'm not saying LPs are better, just amazingly different.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 10:14 |
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i'd need a few good statements to begin with, and i have none, i'm just curious. oh, and by "master & remaster" i didn't mean the relation between the two, i only added two areas for discussion.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 10:02 |
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good idea - why not start one?
the master/remaster subject has been up here before to my knowledge. The Beatles recordings are highly regarded as George Martin, their producer, was used to recording Classical music to a high standard, had state of the art EMI studios and equipment at his disposal and was a perfectionist - the boys excelled technically and wrote great songs. Jimmy Page who worked in the studio recording industry from the ground up for many years, was also a technical wizard in front of and behind the mikes.
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:59 |
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Original film photography is essentially a digital process. You throw photons at a series of chemical pixels and if one hits a pixel it alters it. No two films are exactly the same as all sorts of things like temperature, chemical influence etc. affect the outcome. It is well known in the world of photography that some film (Fuji) gives betters greens and Kodak gives better blues and reds.
You can get just as good colour resolution (and better accuracy) by using a "digital" camera if you have sufficient resolution. It's all a question of cost again. Once you've settled on a resolution that is good enough for your needs what you do get with a digital camera is consistency.
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006 Location: Romania Status: Offline Points: 3089 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:38 |
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i don't know if you did exhaust your knowledge on this matter, but i'd be happier if you guys will use it in - for example - starting a thread for discussing various master & remaster particular cases in the area of prog (or the whole pop-rock spectrum maybe). it would be way more interesting then. an inside view is so precious. myself i'd be interested to know why was the beatles' production so groundbreaking (artistically, technically?), what was so special about jimmy page or brian eno as producers or eddy kramer and (george?) marino as sound engineer, what did prog and experimentalism bring as new...
Edited by andu - October 12 2006 at 09:40 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21679 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:33 |
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Only when we've reached an agreement!   |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21679 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:33 |
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I always say "Better put that extra money into buying more records!". Of course my own solution (using a computer with Creative X-Fi + Logitech Speakers) is not very attractive for audiophiles, and I myself clearly hear the difference to a big system. But as you said, one can still enjoy listening to it.  |
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Bob Greece
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Greece Status: Offline Points: 1823 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:17 |
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I saw the title of this thread and thought that'll be a Mike vs Oliver thread. You have proved me right! Don't you 2 ever give up?!
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21679 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 09:03 |
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Wrong. The human ear doesn't have infinite resolution - that's why we don't hear things that dogs can hear. The human ear is limited in frequency as well as dynamic range, and as long as digital recordings are well beyond these limitations, there is no way the human ear can detect any difference to the original signal.
Manufacturers have already announced new cameras which offer enhanced dynamic range as far as I know they're moving from 8bits/color to 12bits/color. |
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oliverstoned
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 08:16 |
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Unfortunatly this laser-reader vynil was not working... Why? I don't know. Sorry to repeat myself -but things don't change, so i'm forced to- the reason why numeric sound is not good is simple: there are info missing and the human brain/ear detects it. And even if a higher resolution -so less info missing- is potentially better, the problem persists as long as there are still info missing. It's somehow the same with video/photo domain, where numeric images features less intense/natural colours BUT can offer a higher resolution (i talk about the sensitive experience, not the mathematical theories). So, eventually, numeric is better in the video field than in the audio where it's a disaster. BTW the "Blue ray disc" will offer a real improvment in term of image over the DVD, as this format has a higher capacity than the DVD. -->Mystic Fred Improvments continue in the vinyl domain, here's currently the best turntable on earth: Rockport Technology Sirius III 
http://www.stereophile.com/turntables/258/index.html Edited by oliverstoned - October 12 2006 at 08:26 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21679 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 08:10 |
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Sure - it's all subjective. The only objective guideline that I'd like to emphasize is that in listening tests most people fail to tell vinyl and CD apart. That suggests to me that they both objectively sound "good", any neither side has any right to abrogate the other side's hi-fi suitability.  |
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 08:01 |
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I think that they've probably already been made, the technology was pretty mature before CD arrived. You can make better and more expensive components (and read the grooves by laser as mentioned) but I don't think there are any fundamental changes that would have happened.
As mentioned in that article that I posted one of the best improvements would be to use a better substrate than vinyl. i wonder if Oliver will be seeing if he can get some diamond substrate masters made?
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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mystic fred
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 13 2006 Location: Londinium Status: Offline Points: 4252 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 07:57 |
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i wonder what advances in vinyl would have been made if digital hadn't come along?
BTW i've seen a digital laser player that plays vinyl but it is very expensive, and reviews were mixed! the discs had to be at least ex condition as it still picked up pops and clicks on the disc surface.
Edited by mystic fred - October 12 2006 at 07:58 |
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Prog Archives Tour Van
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Neil
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 04 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1497 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 07:56 |
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Quite right. Just because a sound system doesn't cost £5,000 an item doesn't mean that you can't get hours of enjoyment out of it. There is a level of quality, and for most CD is more than adequate, above which most people are quite happy not to go.
Personally I listen to music because I enjoy the rythym, melody and chord structure. The fact that I can't hear the woodworm in the guitar body fart doesn't really worry me. Edited by Heavyfreight - October 12 2006 at 07:57 |
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: October 12 2006 at 07:50 |
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Too many long words... I'm going for a lie down. |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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Which is best - vinyl or CD ?
Topic Options
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
), but "better" is quite subjective. Technically poor sound can sound much "better", than accurate reproduction of a sound, something Heavyfreight mentioned before and I would like to emphasize this.