Why do you blame collins?

Rising Force wrote: Because he's a flamer and  burned my house down and I lost everything. That's why I blame Phil Collins.

¿Phil Collins burned your house?... I kind of have an obssesion regarding Adrian Bellew. I really think he should work harder... Mmmhhh... also, I was partially deaf because of Pedro Aznar. He's really good looking, so, I went to one of his concerts with my girlfriend. The place was loaded with girls that wanted to SEE him. When he came to the stage, they all began screamming...

Peter Gabriel is my hero but Ivan has a good point about the unpleasant behaviour from Peter Gabriel he describes. Many years after his departure from Genesis Peter went into psycho-therapeutical help in order to work on his passive-agressive tendencies. You can read about that in many books about Peter Gabriel. But Phil Collins was

1) very demanding

2) a man who wanted to control everything

3) he was a worcaholic

4) a man who always needed applause

5) a man who wanted to go for success,

                           that's why he sold Genesis to the pop charts!

The best things that Phil Collins ever did... ever... was Brand X and he should have stuck with that.  And dear GOD... if anyone even thinks about bringing up "In The Air Tonight" ... I will find them...

Seriously.  I don't know who exactly bought out Collins but it was good for him and bad for music.  Please check out Brand X if you haven't.  It's fantastic.  R.I.P. Collins 1978.

russellk wrote: Ivan's continued attacks on Collins are tiresome. Read the literature: Banks exerted the most influence throughout their career. And as for saying that Genesis' albums sound almost exactly like Collins' solo albums, go and listen again. There is nothing remotely like Tonight, Tonight, Tonight or Duke's Travels or Domino or Fading Lights or Dodo/ Lurker on any of Collins' solo albums. And there is very little like Sissudio or You Can't Hurry Love on any Genesis album -- one or two songs, perhaps, not much more. Much of their Duke and beyond material was more pop-oriented, with a number of saccharin ballads, I'll agree with that. But, as others have said, that was in line with the times, as was the 1980s production sensibilities. Ivan, you pride yourself on being a good debater. But listen to yourself. You wanted Genesis to 'keep at least part of the original sound and quality.' Really? And just when would it cease being original? 1983? 1990? I thought the idea of progressive music was to -- progress? And as for the claim: 'when they became POP they were just another band giving the people simple music that anybody could make' -- how can you argue that with a straight face? You really think multi-million selling pop can be made by anybody? Anybody? Virtually every prog group who tried it failed, and that includes virtually all of them! It seems to be an integral part of progressive-snobbery to regard pop music as inferior, simpler, beneath contempt. If it was that simple there'd be a lot more millionaires around ... Phil Collins was either a hero nor a villain. He was merely a talented musician who experienced success in at least two separate forms of music. I do not see how that makes him the object of invective and exaggeration that he has become in this forum.

The "progress"  of the 80's Genesis is a regress.From Homo Sapiens to Australopithecus.

But I don't blame this on Phil Collins alone.

Multi-million selling pop can be made by anyone who is stupid enough. These "millioaire  stars "are nothing more than tools and creatures of the record companies. With some support anyone could be the next Britney Spears.Musical talent is really not required for that.

SlipperFink wrote: richardh wrote: Banks was the mastermind in Genesis. ONLY from a compositional standpoint. In the 'classic' line-up, you have the arch-typical "chemistry group". Remove ANYTHING and the equasion suffers. SM.

The compositional standpoint is the only one that matters.Its the music that has lasted and Banks work in the band provided the cornestone.No doubt that Collins and Hackett provided the instrumental clout but did they really contribute that much from a writing point of view? All successfull bands have a chemistry but you can usually pick one member from any band that is vital.I would argue for:

King Crimson - Fripp

Rush - Peart

ELP -Emerson

Yes - Howe

Pink Floyd - Waters

Genesis - Banks

Ivan's continued attacks on Collins are tiresome. Read the literature:
Banks exerted the most influence throughout their career. And as for
saying that Genesis' albums sound almost exactly like Collins' solo
albums, go and listen again. There is nothing remotely like Tonight,
Tonight, Tonight or Duke's Travels or Domino or Fading Lights or Dodo/
Lurker on any of Collins' solo albums. And there is very little like Sissudio
or You Can't Hurry Love on any Genesis album -- one or two songs,
perhaps, not much more. Much of their Duke and beyond material was
more pop-oriented, with a number of saccharin ballads, I'll agree with
that. But, as others have said, that was in line with the times, as was the
1980s production sensibilities.

Ivan, you pride yourself on being a good debater. But listen to yourself.
You wanted Genesis to 'keep at least part of the original sound and
quality.' Really? And just when would it cease being original? 1983? 1990?
I thought the idea of progressive music was to -- progress?

And as for the claim: 'when they became POP they were just another band
giving the people simple music that anybody could make' -- how can you
argue that with a straight face? You really think multi-million selling pop
can be made by anybody? Anybody? Virtually every prog group who tried
it failed, and that includes virtually all of them! It seems to be an integral
part of progressive-snobbery to regard pop music as inferior, simpler,
beneath contempt. If it was that simple there'd be a lot more millionaires
around ...

Phil Collins was either a hero nor a villain. He was merely a talented
musician who experienced success in at least two separate forms of
music. I do not see how that makes him the object of invective and
exaggeration that he has become in this forum.

Edited by russellk

If you really know about prog music you should know that collins always was the mastermind of genesis. >>>

 

His presence was most profound on the first two albums.

Actually there are two Genesis, or Genesi in the Latin.  The band that was post-Gabriel is a different band so comparing the two is probably faulted.  From Trick of the Tail forward, it is obvious that the boys are going for the mainstream American audience, where the money was. I like the pop stuff.  I've always loved Abacab and quite frankly, I could do nothing but give Collins my full respect for the way he was able to dominate the pop music industry in the 1980s. He certainly had more talent than Madonna.

Genesis was the quintessential Prog rock band.  I could imagine that Genesis was quite special to the English audience that revered them in the early 1970s.  Yes was a pop band; they were also Collins' favorite band. He hoped to audition for them back in 1971 when Bruford was first thinking of leaving. ELP was a supergroup; Jethro Tull was a blues band. Pink Floyd was a psychadelic band. Gentle Giant, Soft Machine and King Crimson were pseudo-jazz fusion bands. Whatever prog was, Genesis defined its purist manifestation.

To answer Alpine Jone's question:

The band started changing their sound for several reasons.  Obviously with Peter Gabriel (20% of the group) out of the picture, his contribution in words and music was going to be missing, and the other band members would take on a larger contribution.

But more importantly, the prog. music scene was changing around that time (1977-78).  Prog. groups were becoming less listened to and promoted on radio stations and in magazines, and newer styles like disco and punk were starting to get more visibility.  Prog. bands were referred to as "dinosaurs", as something old and outdated and boring.  Banks, Rutherford, and Collins all wanted to move a bit away from this sterotype, and update their sound to include more pop elements and bring more women into their fanbase.  Steve Hackett didn't want to take this route, holding true to his prog. roots, so he left too.  That left the "three" to completely control their sound to this new route.  And that's what happened.

It wasn't primarily a "Collins" decision to update the band sound and go a more pop-ish route.  It's so stupid to keep hearing people repeating that myth.  It was something that the three all agreed on and wanted.  Banks was still the most in charge though, but he and Rutherford were more than happy to have Collins become the smooth pop vocalist that he started to become.  And just listen to the Banks or Rutherford solo albums.  You'll hear the same thing: smooth pop-styled singers filling up their albums.

Again, it wasn't Collins who "ruined Genesis".  It was "the three" who were guilty for taking that approach.  And in Collins defense, he was and is still a great drummer.  And his work with jazz/fusion group Brand X can't be ignored; being some of the most respectable solo work of ex-Genesis members.

Face reality and leave the guy alone.

 

Edited by Flip_Stone

Shrump wrote: Come on guys. We all know that Phillip is the cause behind all problems. Of the whole world. I mean he lives in my computer for heavens sake!

  you're right Phil not only destroyed genesis he destroyed the public' love for prog and converted them to pop.

 Just like Yoko Ono destroyed the Beatles and had she not come into John's life the Beatles would have made another 10 Abbey Roads

 So there must be  a whipping boy or girl

 

 

  Phil Collins is an excellent drummer who made a sterling contribution to Genesis in it's heyday.As the lead guy in Abba said you are only big for around 7 years then time moves on. Once the 80s came Phil wanted to do pop and Banks wasn't the creative genius he had been.No use getting angry.

By the 80s even the people who loved prog in the 70s had tired of it and weren't buying the records and going to the concerts. So the choice was oblivion or adaption. Yes were clever with 90125 a hit single but some good prog also. But by the 80s it was a hard balancing act