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richardh

Prog Reviewer

Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 29298

Posted: August 24 2004 at 18:57

ELP's - 'Pictures at an Exhibition' IS Overated actually but there are better versions by ELP of this peice - check out the bootleg box sets.There is one sensational performance on the 1973-1977 box at Richfield Colosseum

I also agree about DSOTM ,always found it bland personally

On the underated list I would put:

Kayak - Royal Bed Bouncer

Genesis - ATTWT

IQ - The Seventh House

Martin Orford - Classical Music And Popular Songs

Magenta - Seven

Pink Floyd - The Wall

Yes - Tormato

Rush - Counterparts

Mike Oldfield - Crises

Vangelis - Direct

Undisputed masterpeices:

Yes - Close To The Edge

Genesis - Foxtrot

ELP - Brain Salad Surgery

IQ - Ever

King Crimson - In The Court Of The Crimson King

Jethro Tull - Aqualung

Rush - Moving Pictures

Anglagard - Hybris

Vangelis - Heaven and Hell

Rick Wakeman - Six Wives Of Henry V111

Reed Lover View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: July 16 2004
Location: Sao Tome and Pr
Status: Offline
Points: 5187

Posted: August 24 2004 at 18:43

Most Overrated Prog Albums:

1.The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway.

(lyrical twaddle, not enough music, the Emperors New Clothes comes to mind.)

2.Pictures At An Exhibition.

(puts the pompous in pomp.This album is 100% drivel although not as embarrassing as the track Pirates on Works.)

3.Misplaced Childhood

(Side 2 is rubbish,no other way to describe it really,especially as side 1 is sublime)

4.Relayer

(Patrick Moraz-bah!)

5. Larks Tongues In Aspic

(makes Angelwitch sound musical)

6. Journey To The Centre Of The Earth

(just as God was about to rest on the 7th day, he wrote this and blew it!)

7. Myths And legends Of King Arthur..

(and then only trundled on for an 8th day and came up with this garbage!)

8.And Then There Were Three

(the poison dwarf on drums, vocals and my nerves)

9.Tubular Bells

(about as cool as Oxford Bags)

10.2112

(sublime rock album, but about as prog as Iron Maiden...

The Hemulen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5964

Posted: August 24 2004 at 16:54

maani wrote:

Trouser (sim. threefates and Dick Heath):

My older brother (who turned me on to prog) is a classical violinist and composer with a B.S. in Music from Mannes. He would agree completely with your feelings re ELP: like you, he apparently can't get past the idea of "changing" anything re a classical piece; he considers it "heresy."

Personally, I think this is an unnecessarily narrow view. I happen to think ELP's adaptation (a critical word here) of Pictures is brilliant. After all, what makes classical music so "sacred" that it is absolutely verboten to "play around" with it? My conception of "music" does not disallow for that possibility. Clearly, ELP is not playing Pictures the way Moussourgsky intended it, perhaps. But then, keep in mind that there wasn't "rock" music when Moussourgsky composed it, so how do we know he would not have been tickled to hear his work adapted (if somewhat freely) by a rock band? To presume otherwise is to place every piece of classical music behind a chain-link, barbed-wire fence with a sign saying "no trespassing." How utterly boring that would be! Music is about creativity - whether in writing original music, or interpreting someone else's music. (As an aside, at least ELP had the good taste to credit Moussourgky: they had to be sued to credit other classical composers from whom they "borrowed.")

I also love the standard orchestral version - though, as Dick points out, the piece was originally written for solo piano. In this regard, the greatest recording ever made is by Sviatislov Richter, who played it live in what is unarguably one of the greatest, most brilliant live performances ever by anyone in any era. Although the recording is "denigrated" somewhat by someone in the audience who has a very bad coughing spell at one point, Richter puts in a tour-de-force effort.

Anyway, ELP is one of those bands that one either loves or strongly dislikes. But one person's "bombast" is another person's "excitement" - and one person's "hopeless rip-off" is another person's interpretive tribute.

Peace.

Some good points - however, I did mention that I'm not against 'adaptation' of classical music. I pointed out the fact that I love Isao Tomita's take on Pictures at an Exhibition (which for those who are unfamilar was an extremely innovative early 70's recording solely using synthesisers). As for the Piano/Ravel Orchestration debate - the original piano suite is good, but lacks the oomph that an orchestra can undoubtedly bring to pieces like Hut of Baba Yaga and Great Gates of Kiev. I wouldn't call ELP's 'adaptation' a hopeless rip-off, merely a misguided attempt to rock up a classic in a wholly unnecessary fashion. Shall we all agree to differ?

Easy Livin View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin

Joined: February 21 2004
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 15585

Posted: August 24 2004 at 15:01

Ten bands who could have made a really good prog album if they'd tried.

Asia (Four prog masters together, why didn't they try just once?)
Magnum (They wouldn't have to develop their some of their tracks that much)
Boston (Most of the right ingredients are already there)
10CC (Under achievers, they were capable of more)
Deep Purple ("Child in time", "Mistreated" etc. showed they could have done it)
Journey (Great voice, great guitar, but never went beyond melodic rock)
Rainbow ("Stargazer" is a masterpiece)
Dire Straits ("Telegraph road" shows they could do it)
Mountain ("Nantucket sleighride" was pretty close)
Wishbone Ash (Probably made it with "Argus")
Marillion (Only joking Certif1ed!!)

greenback

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: August 14 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 3300

Posted: August 24 2004 at 14:11

Well, Pictures at an exhibition is technically excellent, but there are some dead fillers I think. It often happens that you hear only one instrument. ELP is at its best when everything is loaded!

Edited by greenback

James Lee

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525

Posted: August 24 2004 at 13:40

just to add a little bit of emphasis to maani's point (as always, well done!)

if you enjoy the sound of the nylon-string classical guitar, keep in mind that any piece of classical music written before the 20th century had to be adapted to the instrument; many in the classical realm refused to even consider the guitar anything but an ethnic folk instrument before the efforts of Segovia (who, in turn, myopically considered the electric guitar an 'abomination'). It is through these variations of arrangement that the music retains its vitality- most classical music was never meant to be an affectation of the upper class and intellectuals and many of our most cherished works have enjoyed many popular interpretations. Emerson has definitely done his part to broaden both audiences.

maani

Special Collaborator

Founding Moderator

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2632

Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:57

Trouser (sim. threefates and Dick Heath):

Peace.

threefates View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215

Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:57

Dick Heath wrote:

threefates wrote:

I loved the orchestral PAAE also, but I love ELP's version better...

Meant to ask what do you make of PAAE as Mussourski's originally wrote, ie.e as a piano piece - good old Ravel did the best known orchestral transcription I believe?

Yes, I also prefer Ravel's version.. and I believe Keith used Ravel's version as his inspiration. I can still remember the first time I saw the shorter version performed as an encore on the BSS tour. It was like a preview of heaven for me.. and at the time Greg could still waiver up to that high note on the end. Truly amazing!!

THIS IS ELP

James Lee

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: June 05 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 3525

Posted: August 24 2004 at 12:43

10 Best Notes

1. E

2. D

3. G

4. A

5. C

6. Eb/ D#

7. F

8. Bb/ A#

9. F# (but not Gb!)

10. H

Vibrationbaby View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898

Posted: August 24 2004 at 11:08

10 best Krautrock

Jane- Fire Water Earth& Air

Grobschnitt- Solar Music Live

Klaus Schulze- Audentity

Nue!- First album

Hoelderlin-clouds & Clowns

GuruGuru- Dance Of The Flames

GuruGuru- UFO

Octopus- Boat Of Thoughts

Amon Duul II- Made In Germany

Grobshnitt- Volle Molle

Well that`s my list. The German stuff I listen to the most.

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818

Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:25

Trouserpress wrote:

I simply adore the Canterbury movement, but that doesn't stop me spotting flaws once in a while... Logically, I also dabble in RIO, despite the fact that I find it's a devillishly tricky bugger to get right. I've recently begun exploring Italian prog in a big way.

Hi Trouserpress you're not me are you and I've got a split personality, just realising it this moment?? I agree with your comments - being a major Soft Machine freak, I thinking some of the SM line-ups that never got recorded (except for the one track on the great BBC 1971 to 74 album) and Wyatts End Of An Ear point towards RIO. BTW Graham Bennett's forthcoming biog on Soft Machine will reinforce some of your opinions

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818

Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:19

threefates wrote:

I loved the orchestral PAAE also, but I love ELP's version better...

Meant to ask what do you make of PAAE as Mussourski's originally wrote, ie.e as a piano piece - good old Ravel did the best known orchestral transcription I believe?

threefates View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: June 30 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 4215

Posted: August 24 2004 at 10:00

Sorry Trousers... but I think your pants are droopy!!

How dare he??? When you have the frigging voice of an angel.. you can damn well put lyrics to any piece of music you want! I loved the orchestral PAAE also, but I love ELP's version better...

When Greg comes in with..."Theres no end to my life"... I'm usually on the floor by that time...thinking.."I'm not worthy"...

THIS IS ELP

The Hemulen View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: July 31 2004
Location: UK
Status: Offline
Points: 5964

Posted: August 24 2004 at 09:28

Well... I knew I'd get a little bit of stick for some of my choices... so let's defend them shall we?

First of all, a bit about my personal tastes: I love good symphonic music with a dash of complexity. Straight "lush"ness bores me a little. I simply adore the Canterbury movement, but that doesn't stop me spotting flaws once in a while... Logically, I also dabble in RIO, despite the fact that I find it's a devillishly tricky bugger to get right. I've recently begun exploring Italian prog in a big way. I'm loving every moment of it.

Most importantly I love music that defies categorisation. I maintain that Prog isn't a genre, but an anti-genre where inventiveness is praised and encouraged. For this reason I tend to go for bands with a really different sound in a big way. Sound-a-likes tend to disappoint me. I've been collecting prog for about 4 and half years now, since the age of about 13.

ELP - I'm sorry but I find their music shallow, showy, dithering and ultimately unsatisfying. They destroyed my favourite suite of classical music ever (Pictures - how DARE Greg Lake put lyrics to The Great Gates of Kiev?! How DARE he?!), not that I don't mind different versions. I love Tomita's take on the suite.

Genesis - Something about their sound simply leaves me cold. I've tried and tried (God! How I've tried...) to like them, but it simply doesn't gel for me. It doesn't work at all. I understand why so many people love them (almost) but their music curdles in my head. I can't enjoy it.

Traffic - Many's the time they've been described as prog. Very mellow prog perhaps, but listen to that title track and tell me there aren't shades of earlier Yes/Canterbury there.

Pink Floyd/Dark Side of the Moon - They produced much better albums. Live with it.

And why didn't I mention Marillion? I just didn't want to revive horrible memories, I suppose...

Well... so there you are. Maybe you can understand my choices a little more now. Do remember though, I'm not making any personal attacks - I'm simply stating my opinion! Glad to see so many people willing to supply theirs too. Carry on.

Cesar Inca View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator

Joined: May 19 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 4888

Posted: August 24 2004 at 09:18

"10 Disgustingly Overrated Prog Albums: 1. Spock's Beard - Snow ; 2. King Crimson - Lark's Tongues In Aspic ; 3. Yes - Tales From Topographic Oceans 4. Soft Machine - Third ; 5. Rick Wakeman - Journey To The Centre Of The Earth ;
6. Pink Floyd - Dark Side Of The Moon ; 7. Anything recorded by Genesis... ever ;
8. ELP - Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery - They're both horrffic ; 9. Mike Oldfield - Tubular Bells ; 10. Traffic - The Low Spark Of High Heeled Boys"

I agree with nos. 1 and 10. Not at all with the wonderful nos. 2, 4, 6, 8 and 9. Somewhat with nos. 3 and 5, but I think that those albums lacked some structure and substance, yet the main musical ideas sound great to me, really great - I don't find them disgustingly overrated. As for no. 7... well, I love Genesis' top albums (just a couple of many factors - Collins' excellent drumming and Hackett's exquisite guitar playing), so I must say that there lies my major disagreement.

Interesting thread, really. Regards.

Blacksword View Drop Down

Prog Reviewer

Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130

Posted: August 24 2004 at 08:33

dude!

I threw that stone! Freefall, only good track on Mirage? Huh!, I dont know..darn Aussies.

Anyway, Sheik Yerbouti Great album. Good choice.

Dark side of the moon is a classic in my book too. I dont think its like any other Floyd album. Despite being preoccupied with death and despair it has a more commercial feel than alot of their other stuff. I guess death sells..

I cant be bothered to put together another list of my own. I've done so many lists on this forum all saying the same thing..whinge moan...

Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!

dude

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 30 2004
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 1338

Posted: August 24 2004 at 08:04

I TOOK A FIFTH LAST NIGHT AND THEN ANOTHER ONE!!! 10 YEAR OLD SCOTCH.........SMOOOOOOOOOOOOOOTH!!!

AS TO THE LISTS,EACH TO HIS OWN.FAMILIARITY BREEDS CONTEMPT MAY BE TRUE BUT NO MATTER HOW MANY TIMES I HEAR DARK SIDE OF THE MOON I JUST CANT HELP THINKING.....

ITS A BLOODY CLASSIC!!

FOR MY MONEY FREEFALL WAS THE ONLY GOOD TRACK ON MIRAGE

OUCH!!!...WHO THREW THAT STONE!?

P.S WHAT ABOUT SHEIK YERBOUTI!!

MAYBE YOU SHOULD STAY WITH YOUR MAMMA(MAMMA)!!

Edited by dude

Jim Garten View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin & Razor Guru

Joined: February 02 2004
Location: South England
Status: Offline
Points: 14693

Posted: August 24 2004 at 07:55

Originally posted by maani (diplomatic, as ever)

maani (diplomatic, as ever) wrote:

Re overrated albums, I take the fifth...

Being a scaredy-cat, I'm taking the fifth on the whole subject - also I'd only get angry if I started reacting to that which I don't agree with.........

Jon Lord 1941 - 2012

Dick Heath View Drop Down

Special Collaborator

Jazz-Rock Specialist

Joined: April 19 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 12818

Posted: August 24 2004 at 06:40

danbo wrote:

10 Indisputable Prog Masterpieces:

I would disputable one or two or three of those Wink

being bloody minded!!!!

Swinton MCR View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 19 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 848

Posted: August 24 2004 at 06:16

Prog Rock Classics

1. Selling England, The lamb, Foxtrot (Genesis)
2. Topographic Oceans, Close to the Edge, Relayer, Going for the one (Yes)
3. Subterranea, Ever, The Wake, Dark matter (IQ)
4. Meddle/Wish you were here (Floyd)
5. Tarkus/Brain Salad Surgery (ELP)
6. Snow Goose/Moonmadness (Camel)
7. Bedside Manners are Extra (Greenslade)
8. Live @ the Target (Twelfth Night)
9. Arrive Alive (Pallas)
10. Spectral Mornings (Steve Hackett)

Notable Mentions

1. Trespass/Nursery Cryme/Trick of the tail/ Wind & Wuthering (Genesis)
2. The yes Album/Tormato/Drama/The ladder (Yes)
3. Tales from the lush attic/Seventh House (IQ)
4. Animals / DSOTM (Floyd)
5. Mirage (Camel)
6. Pictures at an Exhibition (ELP)
7. Beware of Darkness (Spocks Beard)
8. The Sky moves sideways (Porcupine Tree)
9. Force majeure - (Tangerine Dream)
10. Hemisperes (Rush)

No overrated - Taste is personal - most people will only agree with
20-25% of my considered classics.