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MikeEnRegalia View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:40
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:


If you want full freedom of speech, you've got to allow it all. And you've got to allow everyone to disagree with all of it. Now in fact I agree with Hugh Manatee that there is nowhere completely free speech, and chances are we don't want that. There are insults, hate speech, racism, you name it. Words are not innocent. And every democracy has to ask itself, do we grant full freedom to our enemies? Do we allow Holocaust denial for example? Are we fine with manipulators flooding the internet with their dross and using tolerance and freedom to their advantage? This regards both hate speech and misrepresentation of facts. And it's a fine line to tread as free speech and exchange should be a core value of democracy.  

That's exactly right. You can limit illegal stuff like libel and slander, but everything else should be permissible - otherwise someone needs to draw an arbitrary line and things get murky.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:36
Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Yes, it was my point, going further than Ioannidis does. And it's just a hypothesis.

Your main point there is intriguing, and difficult to unwrap since it's actually several independent arguments "against" science. Ultimately, for real world applications, we are accepting scientific theories as valid if their practical application works, which is a combination of verifying the predictions following from the theory and failing to falsify it. You can argue that that is not good enough, I would disagree. Maybe we can agree on that?
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough  to cite a scientific paper to disprove them. 

What do you think about the Poetic Naturalism lecture that I posted a few pages back? There's also Eric Weinstein, very provocative regarding questionable science (especially string theory). I'd say that if somebody claims to have come up with something surprising, ask them how we (you, I) can replicate it. Only then does it start to get interesting (since, as you also said, anyone can make a claim and cite whatever papers to "prove" it).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:31
Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

yea, we are getting way off topic.  Just one more point and i'll leave it at that.

When science plays the reduction game it boils down everything in existence to only 2 components. They are:

1-  Energy
2-  Consciousness

According to science that's it, that's all that exists in creation.  Metaphysics reduces it even further 

Very little of this is off topic: This is how threads tend to evolve: I've seen far worse off-topic episodes: Your science comment is just as tangential as any other post.



Edited by Atavachron - April 09 2024 at 15:33
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought."   -- John F. Kennedy
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:26
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ Yes, it was my point, going further than Ioannidis does. And it's just a hypothesis.

Your main point there is intriguing, and difficult to unwrap since it's actually several independent arguments "against" science. Ultimately, for real world applications, we are accepting scientific theories as valid if their practical application works, which is a combination of verifying the predictions following from the theory and failing to falsify it. You can argue that that is not good enough, I would disagree. Maybe we can agree on that?
I'm fine with the scientific method actually, and with using scientific results. But I also want to keep an open mind. We can use science without having to believe its claims about reality 100%. Whether something works for some kind of purpose is a different issue from whether the statements about objective reality are true that may have inspired the construction of something that works. We don't have to dismiss science in order to keep a healthy scepticism. But if somebody comes up with something surprising, it isn't enough  to cite a scientific paper to disprove them. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:20
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

In many respects it is extremely hard to know the truth, and what is true is controversial even among experts, for example scientists in the same field. There is no instance that has absolute authority to distinguish information from misinformation. One implication of this is that it is also covered by the freedom of speech that somebody can call "misinformation" what is "information" to somebody else.
That is true some cases, but not in others as a lack of concrete validation for this misinformation is easily confirmed. The problem is people still believing the misinformation once they are concretely disproved. Again, See Rudy Giuliani.
Also here I don't think it's "easy" except in very exceptional cases. People claim "facts" all the time, and the conditions for checking them are often not given. People can cite scientific papers or journalists day and night, but there may be mistakes and also manipulation. Often "proof" or at least "strong evidence" is claimed but may be fake. Even if somebody exists who is in principle in the position to check the facts, this is not normally the normal person reading or hearing the claim. They may believe certain "fact checkers", but these are no absolute authority either.

If you want full freedom of speech, you've got to allow it all. And you've got to allow everyone to disagree with all of it. Now in fact I agree with Hugh Manatee that there is nowhere completely free speech, and chances are we don't want that. There are insults, hate speech, racism, you name it. Words are not innocent. And every democracy has to ask itself, do we grant full freedom to our enemies? Do we allow Holocaust denial for example? Are we fine with manipulators flooding the internet with their dross and using tolerance and freedom to their advantage? This regards both hate speech and misrepresentation of facts. And it's a fine line to tread as free speech and exchange should be a core value of democracy.  
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 15:19
^ Yes, it was my point, going further than Ioannidis does. And it's just a hypothesis.

Your main point there is intriguing, and difficult to unwrap since it's actually several independent arguments "against" science. Ultimately, for real world applications, we are accepting scientific theories as valid if their practical application works, which is a combination of verifying the predictions following from the theory and failing to falsify it. You can argue that that is not good enough, I would disagree. Maybe we can agree on that?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 14:44
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

To clarify: Previously I drew a distinction between proper science and improper science. Proper science relies on experimentation, while improper science does not. It is in that context that I said that with proper science, it is "extremely easy to know the truth", by which I meant the result of experiments. The experiments might be quite complex and difficult to perform of course, and in that respect science is hard. But with a proper scientific theory it is really easy to think of an experiment that would falsify it, and if that experiment is done but fails (to falsify the theory), we gain confidence in the theory.  
It's not that easy. I had earlier already linked Pierre Duhem, but the point is better made on this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duhem%E2%80%93Quine_thesis
From there:
Quote
The Duhem–Quine thesis argues that no scientific hypothesis is by itself capable of making predictions. Instead, deriving predictions from the hypothesis typically requires background assumptions that several other hypotheses are correct — that an experiment works as predicted, or that previous scientific theory is accurate. (...) Although a bundle of hypotheses (i.e. a hypothesis and its background assumptions) as a whole can be tested against the empirical world and be falsified if it fails the test, the Duhem–Quine thesis says it is impossible to isolate a single hypothesis in the bundle. 
If you look at the history of science, progress was everything else than smooth. Old theories were supposedly refuted by some and defended by others. This is possible because "falsifying experiments" can be challenged based on challenging background assumptions, quality of measurement and the like. Both quantum and relativity theory had lots of highly qualified opponents in their time, even Newton had them. Furthermore, as I mentioned already earlier, there is in fact not much replication going on in science, and where it is, it often fails. Some stuff is replicated often and therefore of high reliability, because much in research and engineering relies on it, so people have to replicate it in order to have a proper basis for their own constructions. But this is a small minority of very well established material. It is very hard to reach an even remotely similar degree of reliability with anything new researchers come up with.    

Also it isn't enough to come up with experiments that would falsify a theory, they also need to be constructed in such a way that they could actually distinguish between the theory and alternative theories, i.e., in case they are in line with your theory, they need to go against such alternatives, as otherwise the experiment will not be informative either way. Finding such experiments is much harder.
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I was going to post the Ioannidis paper, but someone beat me to it. 
Probably it was He Who Should Not Be Named. LOL
Quote
I'm not sure why they posted it, but the point I am making is essentially that most research conducted today is improper science, which is fundamentally why there is such a high risk of it turning out to be wrong and, in effect, leading to the now common impression among laypeople that "science is always changing".
This is not Ioannidis' point.


Edited by Lewian - April 09 2024 at 14:45
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 14:41
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 14:18
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

First of all, I'm really sorry for all the Ukrainian and Russian people who are suffering and dying by the thousands each month in this war. I'm quite critical of ALL the parties involved - the West/NATO, Russia, and also the Ukrainian government. I agree that of all the things Zelensky has done so far, prolonging martial law and thereby automatically postponing elections is neither controversial nor surprising, and I shouldn't have posted that as a singular criticism. However, looking at everything that has happened in Ukraine under his rule, and also considering that Ukraine wasn't high on the democracy index before the conflict began, I think it's safe to say that the country is far from being a role model for democracy. 
Omg, I actually agree with you. We should go out and buy some Lottery tickets or something. Lol. Despite all the back and forth, it never entered my mind that you would not be apalled at such suffering. Keep that for what it's worth.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 13:59
First of all, I'm really sorry for all the Ukrainian and Russian people who are suffering and dying by the thousands each month in this war. I'm quite critical of ALL the parties involved - the West/NATO, Russia, and also the Ukrainian government. I agree that of all the things Zelensky has done so far, prolonging martial law and thereby automatically postponing elections is neither controversial nor surprising, and I shouldn't have posted that as a singular criticism. However, looking at everything that has happened in Ukraine under his rule, and also considering that Ukraine wasn't high on the democracy index before the conflict began, I think it's safe to say that the country is far from being a role model for democracy, even by Western standards (which, as I've said, are deeply problematic themselves).   

Edited by MikeEnRegalia - April 09 2024 at 14:18
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 13:20
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Nice, keep the insults coming. I had no idea there was a war going on, thanks for letting me know. I will try to answer in an intelligent way later.
LOL  If nothing else, I do find your posts amusing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 12:43
^ Actually it’s all quantum waves 😊
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 12:15
Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Science has told us for a long time now that nothing is solid.  There is no material substance (all is energy) and you have never touched anything material; nothing touches, ever.  This has been based on solid science for a long time now. 

Not that this is very relevant to this thread, but if you think that energy can exist independent of matter, then I think you don't know what energy is about: it can not exist without matter (and time!).

I just had to reply, this is high school science.. Energy can and does exist independent of matter.  What are radio wavers or light? 

However, matter cannot and does not exist independent of energy; it is energy.  An analogy would be an ice cube as matter and water as energy.  Water condenses to form ice, similar to that of energy condensing to form matter.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 12:14
Nice, keep the insults coming. I had no idea there was a war going on, thanks for letting me know. I will try to answer in an intelligent way later.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 12:11
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

^ sure. Whenever that will be is anybody’s guess …

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Ukrainian_presidential_election
Yes, like it or not, democratic governments have temporary war powers in order to preserve their democracies as well as protecting their countries. Let me know when you're at bat for strike three.

Edited by SteveG - April 09 2024 at 13:22
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 11:42
Originally posted by Easy Money Easy Money wrote:

For those who are not knowledgeable about what happens in a country during an invasion. Yes, life is severely disrupted and many civil liberties are suspended. For instance, when Germany was bombing England during WWII, English citizens were not allowed to turn on lights at night because these lights made for good targets for German bombs. Life in the US was very much restricted during WWII as well.
The restrictive measures currently in place in Ukraine happened because of the invasion, they were not in place before the invasion. I'm really surprised that educated people did not already know this.

No one seems to be putting two & two together, John, as if they think maybe it would be a nice change of pace to be bombed.

The ignorance is incredible.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 11:37
yea, we are getting way off topic.  Just one more point and i'll leave it at that.

When science plays the reduction game it boils down everything in existence to only 2 components. They are:

1-  Energy
2-  Consciousness

According to science that's it, that's all that exists in creation.  Metaphysics reduces it even further 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 11:30
For those who are not knowledgeable about what happens in a country during an invasion. Yes, life is severely disrupted and many civil liberties are suspended. For instance, when Germany was bombing England during WWII, English citizens were not allowed to turn on lights at night because these lights made for good targets for German bombs. Life in the US was very much restricted during WWII as well.
The restrictive measures currently in place in Ukraine happened because of the invasion, they were not in place before the invasion. I'm really surprised that educated people did not already know this.

Edited by Easy Money - April 09 2024 at 11:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 11:29
Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

Originally posted by CosmicVibration CosmicVibration wrote:

Originally posted by Archisorcerus Archisorcerus wrote:

"

They want all the people to believe in a cartoon-like world where even the craziest things can be possible.

The same can be said about many quantum physicists, except i'll take out the word all, that's just silly.  Many subscribe to a multi-verse theory. If the theory of an infinite multiverse is true, anything goes, cartoon-like worlds abound, and the craziest things are possible.


I don't buy them. I'm a solid materialist

Science has told us for a long time now that nothing is solid.  There is no material substance (all is energy) and you have never touched anything material; nothing touches, ever.  This has been based on solid science for a long time now.  


.



I don't believe in post-materialist science. As a side note, I'm not a big fan of postmodernism either. LOL

There, "solid" doesn't add to the other word.

But, you're a deviant. Have your fun and keep your crazy fantasies as you like! Wink

Plus, you couldn't reply to my "crucial" point about your clandestine purposes. The same thing had happened, when I alleged it first. Big smile

Anyway... Have it your way. Tongue
 
Crucial point about clandestine purposes?  do you mean this: When a spiritualist and/or conspiracy theorist "intives" you to question some things, they clandestinely mean "Think like we do.".

If that's what you are referring to it should have been extrapolated from the following:
The same can be said about many quantum physicists, except i'll take out the word all, that's just silly

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 09 2024 at 11:26
^ He believes one day he can move mountains from their places by "channeling energy". He said that himself.

Now, who is the real sorcerer? Tongue

Edited by Archisorcerus - April 09 2024 at 11:26
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