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jamesbaldwin View Drop Down
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Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I've been going with The Mothers' 1966 double album, Freak Out, but when can we start including the side-long jazz combo songs? When they started electrifying the bass or using organ? Like Sun Ra's "The Sun Myth" from his 1966 album, The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Vol. 2. That is, are we going to leave out side-long jazz albums despite the fact that they are pre-prog, pre-jazz-rock fusion?

Plus, what about the stuff Terry Riley was doing live in Boston venues in the early & mid-60s (which later got recorded as "In C" "A Rainbow in Curved Air" and "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band All Night Flight")


Freak out is not a side-long song, Drew.

Sun Ra and Terry Riley: are they in progarchives? I checked: No (Terry Riley's music is considered prog-related)

I'm interested in prog rock or proto-prog albums.


Edited by jamesbaldwin - April 10 2023 at 15:18
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Right. You don't know what "a democrat" or democracy is either. This is not about thinking the way I do or not. Its about facts that's non-debatable. You might as well have suggested that some french composer is the best italian composer. In a nutshell: you are wrong, I am right.

Haven't you seen this?

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.


We or I am are debating on other terms. And to call side-long songs "suites" is completely absurd and 100% wrong. Just as wrong as calling a sonett a limerick or whatever.
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Originally posted by mathman0806 mathman0806 wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.

<span style="white-space:pre">     </span>very interesting question  Thumbs Up

Curious myself and a Google search turned up this.

https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37346

Thanks a lot, George, this is very interesting.

So, I'm not the first to ask this question.
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Right. You don't know what "a democrat" or democracy is either. This is not about thinking the way I do or not. Its about facts that's non-debatable. You might as well have suggested that some french composer is the best italian composer. In a nutshell: you are wrong, I am right.

Haven't you seen this?

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.
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Paul, if this topic doesn't interest you, it's easy to stay away. 
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
It seems you're mistaking objective with wrong. Using an objective criterion indicates using the correct criterion. Just ask for early sidelong songs instead. If that's what you're looking for.

You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and it has an actual, specific meaning.

So Close to the Edge is not a suite, right?

It's a multipart song divided into I. The Solid Time Of Change, II: Total Mass Retain, III. I Get Up, I Get Down and IV: Seasons Of Man. And conciously spliced together while taking insipration from composers such as Sibelius and how he composed symphonies using different sounding "movements". So Close to the Edge is much closer to the meaning of a what a suite means than In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - which is pretty much an extended jam. Whether a song is sidelong or not is obviously beside the point. Seriously don't you see how silly that looks? I can't believe I'm discussing this. Supper's Ready isn't sidelong btw and I guess that automatically disqualifies it from all suite-related discussions - unlike Iron Butterfly's overlong little ditty.

Well, you are a true democrat: if anyone doesn't think the way you do, he writes things that sound like silly. Fantastic! A kind of manifesto of intolerance.
Right. You don't know what "a democrat" or democracy is either. This is not about thinking the way I do or not. Its about facts that's non-debatable. You might as well have suggested that some french composer is the best italian composer. In a nutshell: you are wrong, I am right.
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Elton John's Funeral for a Friend / Love Lies Bleeding suite from the Goodbye Yellow Brick Road album.



Edited by Psychedelic Paul - April 10 2023 at 14:48
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^ Yes, the first question is what kind of music are we talking about? - But the OP talks about Rock history.








Edited by David_D - April 10 2023 at 14:31
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I've been going with The Mothers' 1966 double album, Freak Out, but when can we start including the side-long jazz combo songs? When they started electrifying the bass or using organ? Like Sun Ra's "The Sun Myth" from his 1966 album, The Heliocentric Worlds of Sun Ra, Vol. 2. That is, are we going to leave out side-long jazz albums despite the fact that they are pre-prog, pre-jazz-rock fusion?

Plus, what about the stuff Terry Riley was doing live in Boston venues in the early & mid-60s (which later got recorded as "In C" "A Rainbow in Curved Air" and "Poppy Nogood and the Phantom Band All Night Flight")
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?

In my opinion, it is not a suite. It is divided into many songs that have a beginning and an end.

As is always, you just have to agree on the initial definition.

I tried to give a definition of a suite that coincides with side long song.
  I wasn't sure if it suited (pun!), with lyrics.  Thank you for clarifying!  and  Hug
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Maybe it's not essential for a track to occupy an entire LP side in order to be called a suite:
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.

<span style="white-space:pre">     </span>very interesting question  Thumbs Up

Curious myself and a Google search turned up this.

https://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=37346
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^ It's interesting that you mentioned Beethoven because I read somewhere that CD's were designed with a maximum playing time of 80 minutes in order to be able to fit Beethoven's entire Ninth Symphony onto one disc. Smile
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Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

I think you're talking about something usually just referred to as a 'side-long song' or something.
...

Hi,

My thoughts tend to think that "song" is not compatible with "suite" at all ... in essence, in most rock music, a "song" has been based on lyrics to tell you a story, whereas a "SUITE" is an instrumental piece of music that also tells a story, but fans today, will not consider it, because they are expecting lyrics and not getting them.

I'm OK with Side Long thing, but not a song, though I think that Bob Dylan will make you squirm when he hears this. If the "voice" is considered an instrument, then a SUITE can have a voice, which did not happen in music history (have to recheck) until the electric rock days of music, with people wanting to do more than just a song ... or in the case of the early psychedelic folks (the real ones, not the radio ones!!!), it was just a means to enjoy a trip ... and yes, that would be a suite for the most part.

Originally posted by Stressed Cheese Stressed Cheese wrote:

...
Close To The Edge is a side-long song, but I don't think it'd be considered a suite, even though the song itself has different named sections.
...

I'm not sure that I want to sit here and suggest that one thing is and the other isn't. The criteria has changed so much, that by 1972 and 1973, it didn't really matter if it had lyrics or not, and it was a complete side of the LP ...

One other harsh element ... in this music history ... it was the limitation of the LP, which made many things "have to fit" the 20/40 minutes necessary for any piece of music, and this was a problem ... I seriously doubt that Beethoven wrote 9 Symphonies to fit exactly on 2 sides of an LP, or Mahler or anyone else, which suggests to my imagination that there is some music that was cut our in the 20th century going back to the first days of the platter, that might have hurt our definition of it all ... music history has hidden that thought, and I think they would be embarrassed to admit to it, and blame the record companies, but if you wanted it recorded you did what you had to do to get it done, and this or that portion was taken out to make it fit.

With the advent of the commercialization of music, and the availability of all music, it is not likely that we will ever see a "complete" 9th that is 55 minutes long, and not 40 minutes long, since most listeners, already damaged from the rock music simplicity, will likely not care for it at all.

A very strange topic ... and a difficult one, because we do not have a clear and concise definition, and on top of it, many a rock band went around that definition on purpose to do their own thing. We haven't quite discussed that yet!
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.

very interesting question  Thumbs Up
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

....I love our endless subjective debates and nominalistic discussions on the meaning of prog....

You know also which other things you really love. Wink
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Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

....I love our endless subjective debates and nominalistic discussions on the meaning of prog....

You know also which other things you really love. Wink
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

....all this subjective talk that would lead us into a nominalistic discussion.

I love our endless subjective debates and nominalistic discussions on the meaning of prog. Keep them coming! Big smile

One of my favourite suites is David Gates' Clouds Suite from his First album, which made him a lot of Bread, probably. Smile
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Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Saperlipopette! Saperlipopette! wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

That's why I prefer to use an objective criterion: the duration: if it fills a whole side, it's a suite.
It seems you're mistaking objective with wrong. Using an objective criterion indicates using the correct criterion. Just ask for early sidelong songs instead. If that's what you're looking for.

You can't just make up a new meaning for the term suite on the spot. It has existed and has been used as a term in the arts for centuries, and it has an actual, specific meaning.

So Close to the Edge is not a suite, right?

It's a multipart song divided into I. The Solid Time Of Change, II: Total Mass Retain, III. I Get Up, I Get Down and IV: Seasons Of Man. And conciously spliced together while taking insipration from composers such as Sibelius and how he composed symphonies using different sounding "movements". So Close to the Edge is much closer to the meaning of a what a suite means than In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida - which is pretty much an extended jam. Whether a song is sidelong or not is obviously beside the point. Seriously don't you see how silly that looks? I can't believe I'm discussing this. Supper's Ready isn't sidelong btw and I guess that automatically disqualifies it from all suite-related discussions - unlike Iron Butterfly's overlong little ditty.

Well, you are a true democrat: if anyone doesn't think the way you do, he writes things that sound like silly. Fantastic! A kind of manifesto of intolerance.

This thread is not about what a suite is. Although it is an interesting and very complex topic. We can talk about it for months.

I agree that In A Gadda... is more a blues-rock jam than a suite. And that Close to the Edge is closer to a suite -  but it's a verse/chorus song that lasts a long time. Palepoli's Animal senza respiro is much more a suite than Close to the Edge but it is not divided into movements. And then there would be the Rush songs, which sound like suites but aren't, they're pieces of songs, with a beginning and an end, but amalgamated as movements of a suite. The difference with Days of Future Passed is only in calling the songs movements of a suite. If we consider even the "suite of songs", then we risk calling every rock opera or concept album a suite.

Precisely to avoid these quibbles, which make the concept of a suite indefinable without ending in a series of gradations, I wanted to give a tranchant definition of suite. In this way, we avoid all this subjective talk that would lead us into a nominalistic discussion.

Example of shades of suite:

Less suite:  In A Gadda < Days of future passed < The fountain of Lamenth <Close to the Edge < Animale senza respiro < Supper's ready < Thick as a brick : More suite

Then we should also talk about mini-suites, short suites: is Launghin' Tackle by Quatermass a suite? We wouldn't get away with it.

Why did Thick as Brick make history far more than Days of Future Passed? Because the whole album is a suite, but a real suite, where the musical flow never stops, from the beginning to the end of the side, we have two side-long songs.

So I asked myself: who was the first to have the courage to fill an entire side of an LP with one song? I called these songs suites. Better to call them side-long songs? OK, let's call them side-long songs.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by Snicolette Snicolette wrote:

What about "Days of Future Passed," by The Moody Blues, November 1967?

In my opinion, it is not a suite. It is divided into many songs that have a beginning and an end.

As is always, you just have to agree on the initial definition.

I tried to give a definition of a suite that coincides with side long song.
But your definition is objectically incorrect and impossible to agree upon - and Snicolette is right. Days of Future Passed is a suite of songs. Suites are normally divided into parts, but thematically/musically linked. How about you read a wikipedia article about "suites in music" first? It will only takes a few minutes of your time to learn all you need to know. A lot less time than you'll spend arguing while being wrong here.
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