Pink Floyd: The Wall.

Blacksword wrote: rogerthat wrote: Blacksword wrote: Floyds whole schtick was slow, thoughtful, drifting music, which could be considered lugubrious, but presumably that was the intention of the band, rather than a restriction imposed by Mason's playing style. I think it's a bit of both.  I read in a recent Classic Rock interview that Mason could not play the time sig of Mother and a session hand played on the recording.  NOW you have to say it is difficult to imagine any of Bruford/Collins/Palmer/Weathers having any difficulty playing that song. And while it may not have been necessary for him to play balls out most of the time, I think the ability to produce lots of variations in your drumming is also correlated to a reasonable amount of virtuosity and the exceptions only prove the rule. They are both related to the amount of control a drummer has over his instrument. There can't be too many drummers who could only play the most basic patterns but somehow had the most awesome dynamic range. I don't think Mason falls into that basket at any rate.  I must admit I didn't know that about Mother. Jeff Porcaro played on the track apparently. You learn something every day! :-)

I've just re-listened to Mother after some considerable time. It's not difficult to play, despite the fluctuating meter. I've just played along to it on my practice kit, and it's fairly easy. I'm surprised Mason had problems with that! He coped with Money, and that's 7/4 with a switch to 4/4 for the middle section.

richardh wrote: SteveG wrote: The Dark Elf wrote: SteveG wrote: richardh wrote: Massively important album for me as I left my teens and entered adulthood. Didn't listen to anything else around 1980-81 at all. Then became a bit bored of it . The biggest problem fore me is the flat production although admittedly this is a feature of most Floyd albums. Flat production? It's perfect for what it was intended for. Producer Bob Ezrin had to move between sounding like a live band recording and studio work without sonically clashing and did a great job, imho. Yes, "flat production that is a feature most Floyd albums". Because Dark Side of the Moon is a gold standard and most emulated and revered album for flat production.  Anyway, I think The Wall works best when David Gilmour is fully engaged, hence songs like "The Thin Ice", "Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2", "Mother", "Goodbye Blue Sky", "Young Lust, "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb" and "Run Like Hell", all of which Gilmour has writing credits, and basically the best and most memorable parts of the album. Greg, I've come to the conclusion that anyone who thinks that drums that were recorded in a real echo chamber is flat production must be have serious hearing difficulties. Muddy or congested? Yes. Flat as lacking dimension (neutral EQing is what Flat really means, btw) or dynamics? No, it's not that in the least. I've never been impressed by Floyd in terms of production, so don't care for the 'my ears are lying' tripe by people who clearly have very little idea but like to pretend otherwise. The whole 'thought police' thing on this forum is very wearing at times. I know what I hear. You of course are allowed to have an opinion but pretending you know what you are talking about is a whole other thing. As for Dark Side of The Moon being the 'gold standard' is a complete joke. What is this FM Radio or something? The most ridiculously over hyped album in terms of production there jhas ever been. Everything Alan Parsons has ever touched is so bland sounding. Quite strange really.

We are not talking about DSotM or any APP albums or, indeed, Alan Parsons as a recording engineer. Parsons and EMI/Abbey Road studios had nothing to do with the production of The Wall. If you base your opinions on the sound of The Wall by other albums that have proceeded it, then I can only surmise that you have worse problems than just poor hearing. In an effort to be fair, The Wall is no super detailed audiophile grade recording. It wasn't meant to be. Bob Ezrin, a hard rock producer (Alice Cooper/Kiss) was employed to give the album a live "rock concert" sound which he did admirably. He used just enough heavy echo and reverb on certain key instruments, like bass, drums and vocals, to keep the recordings from sounding like a Phil Spector Wall of Sound production. Indeed, if you listen to old Spector records you will almost hear the same degree of muddiness and congestion. It's part of the process, unfortunately. If this is indeed what you object to, I can understand. But I don't think it is as that has nothing to do with sounding "flat", as in "lifeless".

Edited by SteveG - January 04 2021 at 09:51

rogerthat wrote: richardh wrote: I've never been impressed by Floyd in terms of production, so don't care for the 'my ears are lying' tripe by people who clearly have very little idea but like to pretend otherwise. The whole 'thought police' thing on this forum is very wearing at times. I know what I hear. You of course are allowed to have an opinion but pretending you know what you are talking about is a whole other thing. As for Dark Side of The Moon being the 'gold standard' is a complete joke. What is this FM Radio or something? The most ridiculously over hyped album in terms of production there has ever been. Everything Alan Parsons has ever touched is so bland sounding. Quite strange really.  But that sounds more like a music issue than a production issue.  I mean AP WAS associated with super bland adult contemp rock kinda stuff. Just listen to Nick Mason on Live at Pompeii.  There's nothing much a producer can do about that drum sound.   The elephant in the room is why do even top notch drummers feel so compelled to rationalize or contextualize Mason?  Sure he was a creative force but his chops are hardly much to crow about.  Ergo, the dynamics you miss are really lacking in his playing itself, not the production.  And there isn't much room for the others to get dynamic when the drummer isn't.   For that matter, based on Gilmour's long career (and I say this with the greatest respect), I don't think he can deliver Hackett like dynamics for you.  That's not his speciality.  Those albums kinda sound bland because the playing IS bland.  It's more 'classic rock' playing than prog rock playing.  Nobody wants to talk about this but it doesn't make it not true.  Floyd were the Beatles of the 70s.  They were great at putting together amazing albums, less so at playing brilliantly on those albums.

An interesting perspective, and one I mostly agree with.

Floyds production could often be considered muddy IMO, with notable exceptions. WYWH is a brilliantly produced album. The Wall is also ok. Animals and Meddle are so so (although they are brilliant albums) The production job on DSOTM is somewhat over applauded due to the huge success of the album I suspect. As for Mason's drumming, it's basic but I wouldn't say it was bad. Floyds whole schtick was slow, thoughtful, drifting music, which could be considered lugubrious, but presumably that was the intention of the band, rather than a restriction imposed by Mason's playing style. Virtuoso playing is not a prerequisite of making prog rock - it can help - but it's about composition and feel IMO.

In any case, yes I agree about Alan Parsons. Again I think he is 'over applauded' due to his work on DSOTM. I have heard around four APP albums, and they are almost completely unremarkable, and I don't really consider them prog rock. Mildly progressive at a push.

The Wall was an important 'entry' Floyd album for me, and a gateway album into prog. It's a very good album, but far from their best.

Have gone up and down and back up with this album.

Edited by rogerthat - January 03 2021 at 19:23

The Dark Elf wrote: SteveG wrote: richardh wrote: Massively important album for me as I left my teens and entered adulthood. Didn't listen to anything else around 1980-81 at all. Then became a bit bored of it . The biggest problem fore me is the flat production although admittedly this is a feature of most Floyd albums. Flat production? It's perfect for what it was intended for. Producer Bob Ezrin had to move between sounding like a live band recording and studio work without sonically clashing and did a great job, imho. Yes, "flat production that is a feature most Floyd albums". Because Dark Side of the Moon is a gold standard and most emulated and revered album for flat production.  Anyway, I think The Wall works best when David Gilmour is fully engaged, hence songs like "The Thin Ice", "Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2", "Mother", "Goodbye Blue Sky", "Young Lust, "Hey You", "Comfortably Numb" and "Run Like Hell", all of which Gilmour has writing credits, and basically the best and most memorable parts of the album.

Greg, I've come to the conclusion that anyone who thinks that drums that were recorded in a real echo chamber is flat production must be have serious hearing difficulties. Muddy or congested? Yes. Flat as lacking dimension (neutral EQing is what Flat really means, btw) or dynamics? No, it's not that in the least.

Edited by SteveG - January 03 2021 at 13:14

Ohh no, no flat production at all! It was mastered at The Mastering Lab and my original version sounds amazing. The 2012 remaster that was cut by Doug Sax and James Guthrie is brilliant, this version opens up the sound a bit more and the soundstage is awesome! Certain parts of the original mix have a muddy mix and this is all fixed. Also cut at The Mastering Lab.

SteveG wrote: richardh wrote: Massively important album for me as I left my teens and entered adulthood. Didn't listen to anything else around 1980-81 at all. Then became a bit bored of it . The biggest problem fore me is the flat production although admittedly this is a feature of most Floyd albums. Flat production? It's perfect for what it was intended for. Producer Bob Ezrin had to move between sounding like a live band recording and studio work without sonically clashing and did a great job, imho.

Edited by The Dark Elf - January 03 2021 at 10:40

Massively important album for me as I left my teens and entered adulthood. Didn't listen to anything else around 1980-81 at all. Then became a bit bored of it . The biggest problem fore me is the flat production although admittedly this is a feature of most Floyd albums.

I’ve never understood the filler argument, either. There’s nothing I’d lose.