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JS19 
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Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
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Points: 1321
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 Posted: March 07 2011 at 12:17 |
 rogerthat wrote:
Very weak reasoning and completely baseless argument. I listened to DT the way I listened to any other band. I am sorry, but those songs too did nothing for me emotionally. I find Change of Seasons so laughably overblown and, here comes that word again, cliched. Every time they need to build a crescendo, they do it exactly the way it's been done by oh so many pop metal bands in the 80s and yet because it's DT, I am biased for saying so, is it? Honestly, why would you want to rant about what people say about DT's music or point examples of what you consider emotional songs by them (for persuasion, if not what is the idea of doing so beats me?) if you completely reject any criticism of them as prog elitism or snobbishness. Oh, and before you jump to that conclusion, I have heard all three songs many, many times prior to this discussion. So I was not judging Change of Seasons just now and posting my impressions.
More knee jerk defensive reactions, FYI I am a metalhead and describing metal music as mainstream scum is, er, way off base. I mean, since when was Rigor Mortis more mainstream than Dream Theater, for instance? More proof that some Dream Theater fans, yourself included, cannot accept a different opinion and jump to the conclusion that it must be only because of prejudice or snobbery. In other words, that we are wrong and only you are right. Funny then that we are the ones who get called snobs because.... 
Ironically, this thread was going along fine before, predictably, a Dream Theater fan just HAD to invalidate criticism made about DT and others joined in to express their condolences. Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself and then complain that people bash DT all the time? Just take a look at how much you bash others' views each time you complain of DT-bashing. At least, we only 'bash' the music, we didn't call you soulless.  |
I think the actual reason, that these threads go off topic is because, even though this thread was obviously a thread that discussed the direction the band would take, which would mean it was a positive thread, just for those who were interested, there's always someone who thinks of DT as a scapegoat for everything they hate about music. You just had to write a post so far up your own backside that you had to winch it out didn't you. Couldn't leave your opinions to themselves, oh no, because your opinions are the ones everyone should share.
Of course if you had something constructive to say about the topic, this thread wouldn't go off topic. WHich is what you want isn't it?
rogerthat wrote:
Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself? |
How ironic....
(PS. By the way, i actually agree that quite a lot of DT material can be a little emotionally cold, but there is some genuinely emotion stuff there, and to call it soulless is just blind)
(PPS. I also have absolutely nothing against mainstream metal, I can't understand where you got that bit from)
[I will point towards this glorious thread that explains all my points Enjoy!]
Edited by JS19 - March 07 2011 at 12:52
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Hanyou
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 02 2010
Location: North Carolina
Status: Offline
Points: 101
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 11:39 |
rogerthat wrote:
I don't even remember much about Sacrificed Sons but Finally Free is like an 80s cliches epic. I don't like that kind of cliched pop/rock expression - and I don't mean just LaBrie but the whole band here - and I don't discriminate there, I dislike it in whatever band I find it. Ayreon is another. Because DT is a big band, they get picked on more, it's natural. Focus also made Anonymous and yet it's ELP who always get picked on for criticism. You are free to like songs like Finally Free, but I'd not be surprised that people whose appetite has earlier been whetted by Firth...or Fallen Angel would call it soulless. Hardly any music is OBJECTIVELY soulless, so that's not what they are saying anyway, they just mean it's not soulful enough for their liking. |
Like I said, I understand that music is subjective, I just don't think the level of emotion in those songs is really that ambiguous. "Emotionless" is a criticism I might level against some grunge, which can seem to be built off of apathy. It's not hard to sound emotional. But I think Dream Theater couples this with a real sophistication to their sound that comes out in songs like "Finally Free"--the lyrics, the song structure, the presentation, LaBrie's singing, it just all comes together so well.
Also, what does "80's cliche epic" mean? When I think of 80's epics, I think of Iron Maiden, Metallica, or Marillion. Dream Theater definitely carries an influence from them, but it has a sound all its own. I wouldn't call it "cliche" at all, as "Finally Free" doesn't sound like it comes from any of those bands. As for Ayreon, I think they're brilliant and I love the style used on those albums. Again, I find it pretty intensely emotional. So I'd really like to know what this 80's epic style is.
For the record, I love "Fallen Angel" and "Firth of Fifth." Brilliant songs. But I don't quite see what they have to do with Dream Theater or "Finally Free."
As for sterile, compare DT's covers of Hallowed Be Thy Name or Love Lies Bleeding with performances by the original artists. Do you really not hear the flatness and obtrusive loudness in DT's delivery and specifically Portnoy? I do and so, again relatively speaking, find their approach a little sterile. And I only mentioned covers to make a comparison, their approach is not very different even when they play their original songs.
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Yeah, I'll admit I don't like their covers that much. Then again, I rarely like covers, so I don't think I'm a fair judge of that (their recent cover of Stargazer was good, though...check it out). I also agree they carry their style over to their covers, and it bears many of the same hallmarks...the major difference is that it really works for their own music.
I don't know if we can really argue here. It's obvious I like many of the same things you hate about their music. I will agree about one thing, though: their music can be "obtrusively loud" sometimes. That's a major f**king problem with their latest albums.
Porcupinetheater wrote:
I think the hate was inevitable the instant they released anything that wasn't Images and Words. |
Maybe, but to be fair, I don't think people hate them for the sake of hating them. And also, Images and Words really was their best by far IMO (I like elements of their style in their first 3 albums more than that in most of the following ones, something I chalk up in large part to Moore. The major exception is Scenes from a Memory).
JS19 wrote:
I think the reason that DT get rejected, is because the Prog 'Elite' (haha), don't want to even consider that the reason that they are pretty well known amongst normal metal fans is for their emotion, and PROG ELEMENTS. Gosh! Mainstream scum, Liking PROG. Oh God NO! |
I think it's more than that, because I see the criticism stretch beyond the "prog elite." But the hatred for them among prog fans does confuse me a bit.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 11:10 |
ITT:  Also,  Seriously, try harder.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 10:41 |
JS19 wrote:
I mean, i'm going to take the ending to 'The Count Of Tuscany', the ending of 'In The Presence.... part 2', A Change Of Seasons. You can never find something, if you objectively don't want it to be there. |
Very weak reasoning and completely baseless argument. I listened to DT the way I listened to any other band. I am sorry, but those songs too did nothing for me emotionally. I find Change of Seasons so laughably overblown and, here comes that word again, cliched. Every time they need to build a crescendo, they do it exactly the way it's been done by oh so many pop metal bands in the 80s and yet because it's DT, I am biased for saying so, is it? Honestly, why would you want to rant about what people say about DT's music or point examples of what you consider emotional songs by them (for persuasion, if not what is the idea of doing so beats me?) if you completely reject any criticism of them as prog elitism or snobbishness. Oh, and before you jump to that conclusion, I have heard all three songs many, many times prior to this discussion. So I was not judging Change of Seasons just now and posting my impressions.
JS19 wrote:
I think the reason that DT get rejected, is because the Prog 'Elite' (haha), don't want to even consider that the reason that they are pretty well known amongst normal metal fans is for their emotion, and PROG ELEMENTS. Gosh! Mainstream scum, Liking PROG. Oh God NO! |
More knee jerk defensive reactions, FYI I am a metalhead and describing metal music as mainstream scum is, er, way off base. I mean, since when was Rigor Mortis more mainstream than Dream Theater, for instance? More proof that some Dream Theater fans, yourself included, cannot accept a different opinion and jump to the conclusion that it must be only because of prejudice or snobbery. In other words, that we are wrong and only you are right. Funny then that we are the ones who get called snobs because.... 
Ironically, this thread was going along fine before, predictably, a Dream Theater fan just HAD to invalidate criticism made about DT and others joined in to express their condolences. Is it so hard to stay on topic instead of launching into the same old rant every time the opportunity presents itself and then complain that people bash DT all the time? Just take a look at how much you bash others' views each time you complain of DT-bashing. At least, we only 'bash' the music, we didn't call you soulless. 
Edited by rogerthat - March 07 2011 at 10:43
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 03:54 |
peart_lee_lifeson wrote:
For anyone needing to remember why Dream Theater is the best, here you go.
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Utterly, utterly soulless 
The only problem I have with Score, is that one of the violins is horrifically out of tune, for quite a while, and it's off-putting.
Edited by JS19 - March 07 2011 at 03:59
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010
Location: Lancaster, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 1321
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 03:52 |
rogerthat wrote:
Hanyou wrote:
Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music? I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it. What songs are these people listening to? |
I don't even remember much about Sacrificed Sons but Finally Free is like an 80s cliches epic. I don't like that kind of cliched pop/rock expression - and I don't mean just LaBrie but the whole band here - and I don't discriminate there, I dislike it in whatever band I find it. Ayreon is another. Because DT is a big band, they get picked on more, it's natural. Focus also made Anonymous and yet it's ELP who always get picked on for criticism. You are free to like songs like Finally Free, but I'd not be surprised that people whose appetite has earlier been whetted by Firth...or Fallen Angel would call it soulless. Hardly any music is OBJECTIVELY soulless, so that's not what they are saying anyway, they just mean it's not soulful enough for their liking. As for sterile, compare DT's covers of Hallowed Be Thy Name or Love Lies Bleeding with performances by the original artists. Do you really not hear the flatness and obtrusive loudness in DT's delivery and specifically Portnoy? I do and so, again relatively speaking, find their approach a little sterile. And I only mentioned covers to make a comparison, their approach is not very different even when they play their original songs.
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This is the most biast post, I have read on PA in a long time. I find most of DT's music to be just as emotional as the next band, and emotion is something I specifically home in on when I listen to music, and one of the reasons I love Prog so much. I cannot, I repeat, cannot understand all the hate that DT get for being soulless. I mean, i'm going to take the ending to 'The Count Of Tuscany', the ending of 'In The Presence.... part 2', A Change Of Seasons. You can never find something, if you objectively don't want it to be there.
I think the reason that DT get rejected, is because the Prog 'Elite' (haha), don't want to even consider that the reason that they are pretty well known amongst normal metal fans is for their emotion, and PROG ELEMENTS. Gosh! Mainstream scum, Liking PROG. Oh God NO!
I can understand why someone would dislike a band, but to have an army of snobs rejecting you, you must be doing something right.... I respect you for that DT, I really do.
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darkshade
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Joined: November 19 2005
Location: New Jersey
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Points: 10964
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Posted: March 07 2011 at 01:26 |
peart_lee_lifeson wrote:
For anyone needing to remember why Dream Theater is the best, here you go.
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 i havent watched Score in a long time, though ive listened to the cds a lot. Great video, i may have to watch that. This is one of their best songs.
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peart_lee_lifeson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 22 2009
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 305
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 23:15 |
For anyone needing to remember why Dream Theater is the best, here you go.
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PROG ON!!!
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peart_lee_lifeson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 22 2009
Location: North Dakota
Status: Offline
Points: 305
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 23:07 |
Hanyou wrote:
Alright, so what's been annoying the crap out of me lately is I've seen a lot of people, including here at progarchives, hate on Dream Theater for being "emotionless" or "sterile." That really gets to me. I don't understand music at all, so I don't appreciate pointless w**kery, yet somehow I love a good deal of Dream Theater's output.
Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music? I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it. What songs are these people listening to? |
I agree with this.
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PROG ON!!!
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 20:01 |
Hanyou wrote:
Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music? I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it. What songs are these people listening to? |
I don't even remember much about Sacrificed Sons but Finally Free is like an 80s cliches epic. I don't like that kind of cliched pop/rock expression - and I don't mean just LaBrie but the whole band here - and I don't discriminate there, I dislike it in whatever band I find it. Ayreon is another. Because DT is a big band, they get picked on more, it's natural. Focus also made Anonymous and yet it's ELP who always get picked on for criticism. You are free to like songs like Finally Free, but I'd not be surprised that people whose appetite has earlier been whetted by Firth...or Fallen Angel would call it soulless. Hardly any music is OBJECTIVELY soulless, so that's not what they are saying anyway, they just mean it's not soulful enough for their liking. As for sterile, compare DT's covers of Hallowed Be Thy Name or Love Lies Bleeding with performances by the original artists. Do you really not hear the flatness and obtrusive loudness in DT's delivery and specifically Portnoy? I do and so, again relatively speaking, find their approach a little sterile. And I only mentioned covers to make a comparison, their approach is not very different even when they play their original songs.
Edited by rogerthat - March 06 2011 at 20:04
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Porcupinetheater
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 16:35 |
Hanyou wrote:
Alright, so what's been annoying the crap out of me lately is I've seen a lot of people, including here at progarchives, hate on Dream Theater for being "emotionless" or "sterile." That really gets to me. I don't understand music at all, so I don't appreciate pointless w**kery, yet somehow I love a good deal of Dream Theater's output.
Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music? I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it. What songs are these people listening to? |
I think the hate was inevitable the instant they released anything that wasn't Images and Words. Unfortunately, any band that receives this level of fame in the progressive scene that wasn't around in the 1970s is inevitably going to get jumped on, regardless of quality. Although they did take two steps back with Systematic Chaos, even I must admit.
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Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure.
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Hanyou
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Joined: November 02 2010
Location: North Carolina
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Points: 101
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 16:29 |
Alright, so what's been annoying the crap out of me lately is I've seen a lot of people, including here at progarchives, hate on Dream Theater for being "emotionless" or "sterile." That really gets to me. I don't understand music at all, so I don't appreciate pointless w**kery, yet somehow I love a good deal of Dream Theater's output.
Have these people just not heard Dream Theater's music? I know appreciation of music can be subjective, but it just seems incredibly strange that the band that put out songs like "Finally Free" or "Sacrificed Sons" would have that criticism leveled against it. What songs are these people listening to?
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Porcupinetheater
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Posted: March 06 2011 at 15:53 |
JS19 wrote:
Referring back to my original post, now I've given it a bit more thought, I think that what makes DT popular, is their quirkiness in the mainstream metal scene (Also known as their prog side).
Their most highly rated albums: Six Degrees, Scenes From A Memory, Images and Words. The proggiest things they ever did. And their worst? (Not counting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite) Systematic Choas, the most straightforward metal thing they did. Octavarium, only worth it for the title track, which sees them in full out Prog mode, while the other tracks are rather throwaway. Black clouds and silver lining turned up the metal and the prog, and the worst parts about it? The terrible lyrics (metal), the odd grunts from Portnoy (metal) and 'A Rite Of Passage' (metal).
I see a pattern forming! I think if they keep the prog, they may stay afloat without Portnoy, ditch it completely and they'll sink without a trace.
PS. Yes we all know Portnoy is a complete A-hole, but he's a damn good drummer, I fail to see how the two are connected? |
I think this has something to do with James LaBrie. I definitely really love his vocal style, but it doesn't really fit with a metal approach. He's definitely better off in the pure progressive areas where singers with decent ranges and lots of falsetto are the norm, considering I think he actually is a better vocalist than most of them. It just doesn't fit with the metal style. That, and Dream Theater have just always been better at writing progressive tunes, as opposed to metal ones. And generally, their heavy songs that I absolutely love also have an abundance of progressiveness to them. (See: the Glass Prison). Still, Portnoy's been writing more of the heavy material than the other members, so I think this may finally give DT a chance to get back to the more progressive side!
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Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch it to be sure.
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topographicbroadways
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Joined: May 20 2010
Location: Australia
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Points: 5575
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Posted: March 05 2011 at 06:14 |
rogerthat wrote:
JS19 wrote:
Referring back to my original post, now I've given it a bit more thought, I think that what makes DT popular, is their quirkiness in the mainstream metal scene (Also known as their prog side).
Their most highly rated albums: Six Degrees, Scenes From A Memory, Images and Words. The proggiest things they ever did. And their worst? (Not counting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite) Systematic Choas, the most straightforward metal thing they did. Octavarium, only worth it for the title track, which sees them in full out Prog mode, while the other tracks are rather throwaway. Black clouds and silver lining turned up the metal and the prog, and the worst parts about it? The terrible lyrics (metal), the odd grunts from Portnoy (metal) and 'A Rite Of Passage' (metal).
I see a pattern forming! I think if they keep the prog, they may stay afloat without Portnoy, ditch it completely and they'll sink without a trace.
PS. Yes we all know Portnoy is a complete A-hole, but he's a damn good drummer, I fail to see how the two are connected? |
But, commercially, Black Clouds was a rebound. As with SX, metal and prog crowd have divergent views on which are the better DT albums. The metal crowd likes the more metal side of both bands and since metal fills the arenas to this day, I guess metal will win the day. Then again, Petrucci loves fusion so he might want to ease up on the metal and lean more towards fusion and since he is likely to be the chief songwriter in the absence of Portnoy, he might exert a lot of influence over the rest of the band. |
You also have Rudess with a huge classic prog influence so maybe we'll eventually see something that even the current DT haters respect, or call unoriginal, either way exciting times hopefully
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Points: 9869
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Posted: March 04 2011 at 23:19 |
JS19 wrote:
Referring back to my original post, now I've given it a bit more thought, I think that what makes DT popular, is their quirkiness in the mainstream metal scene (Also known as their prog side).
Their most highly rated albums: Six Degrees, Scenes From A Memory, Images and Words. The proggiest things they ever did. And their worst? (Not counting Falling Into Infinity and When Dream And Day Unite) Systematic Choas, the most straightforward metal thing they did. Octavarium, only worth it for the title track, which sees them in full out Prog mode, while the other tracks are rather throwaway. Black clouds and silver lining turned up the metal and the prog, and the worst parts about it? The terrible lyrics (metal), the odd grunts from Portnoy (metal) and 'A Rite Of Passage' (metal).
I see a pattern forming! I think if they keep the prog, they may stay afloat without Portnoy, ditch it completely and they'll sink without a trace.
PS. Yes we all know Portnoy is a complete A-hole, but he's a damn good drummer, I fail to see how the two are connected? |
But, commercially, Black Clouds was a rebound. As with SX, metal and prog crowd have divergent views on which are the better DT albums. The metal crowd likes the more metal side of both bands and since metal fills the arenas to this day, I guess metal will win the day. Then again, Petrucci loves fusion so he might want to ease up on the metal and lean more towards fusion and since he is likely to be the chief songwriter in the absence of Portnoy, he might exert a lot of influence over the rest of the band.
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The T
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Posted: March 04 2011 at 00:43 |
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Mangini I guess. It seems Labrie runs the show now.
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Sargasso
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Location: Auburn
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Posted: March 04 2011 at 00:19 |
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I'm still crossing my fingers for Gavin
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TheClosing
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Posted: March 03 2011 at 23:46 |
E-Dub wrote:
Still no announcement on who's filling the drummer's seat? |
I'll give you a hint: his name's Mike, but his last name ain't Portnoy.
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Sargasso
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Posted: March 03 2011 at 21:03 |
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The Ghost of John Bonham
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E-Dub
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Posted: March 03 2011 at 19:24 |
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New favorite DT tune: "Blind Faith" My goodness, that is a killer tune.
Still no announcement on who's filling the drummer's seat?
E
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Dream Theater
