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Topic ClosedCovid-19 and the madness of crowds

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2020 at 07:51
Would solve a good number of problems though.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2020 at 06:33

 

 

Coronavirus: Outcry after Trump suggests injecting disinfectant as treatment!

 

US President Donald Trump has been lambasted by the medical community after suggesting research into whether coronavirus might be treated by injecting disinfectant into the body.

He also appeared to propose irradiating patients' bodies with UV light, an idea dismissed by a doctor at the briefing.

Another of his officials had moments earlier said sunlight and disinfectant were known to kill the infection.

Disinfectants are hazardous substances and can be poisonous if ingested.

Even external exposure can be dangerous to the skin, eyes and respiratory system.

What did President Trump say?

During Thursday's White House coronavirus task force briefing, an official presented the results of US government research that indicated coronavirus appeared to weaken more quickly when exposed to sunlight and heat.

The study also showed bleach could kill the virus in saliva or respiratory fluids within five minutes and isopropyl alcohol could kill it even more quickly.

Donald Trump with a list of possible Covid-19 treatments at the White House briefing, 23 April 2020Image copyright Getty Images Image caption Bleach and sunshine were proposed as possible strategies to tackle the coronavirus

William Bryan, acting head of the US Department of Homeland Security's Science and Technology Directorate, outlined the findings at the news conference.

While noting the research should be treated with caution, Mr Trump suggested further research in that area.

"So, supposing we hit the body with a tremendous - whether it's ultraviolet or just very powerful light," the president said, turning to Dr Deborah Birx, the White House coronavirus response co-ordinator, "and I think you said that hasn't been checked but you're going to test it.

"And then I said, supposing you brought the light inside of the body, which you can do either through the skin or in some other way. And I think you said you're going to test that too. Sounds interesting," the president continued.

Donald Trump criticised Georgia’s governor for reopening

"And then I see the disinfectant where it knocks it out in a minute. One minute. And is there a way we can do something like that, by injection inside or almost a cleaning?

"So it'd be interesting to check that."

Pointing to his head, Mr Trump went on: "I'm not a doctor. But I'm, like, a person that has a good you-know-what."

He turned again to Dr Birx and asked if she had ever heard of using "the heat and the light" to treat coronavirus.

"Not as a treatment," Dr Birx said. "I mean, certainly, fever is a good thing. When you have a fever, it helps your body respond. But I've not seen heat or light."

"I think it's a great thing to look at," Mr Trump said.

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Across the United States, some people insist the lockdowns should be lifted and states reopened

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Media captionAcross the United States, some people insist the lockdowns should be lifted and states reopened
Presentational grey line

Disinfectants don't work inside the body

Analysis by Rachel Schraer, BBC health reporter

Using a disinfectant can kill viruses on surfaces. It's a very good idea to keep clean the things you touch, using products with anti-microbial properties - for example, substances with a high alcohol content.

There is also some evidence that, in general, viruses on surfaces die more quickly when directly exposed to sunlight. But we don't know how much or how long they have to be exposed for UV light to have an effect, so you're far safer just washing your hands and surfaces and trying not to touch your face.

Crucially, this is only about infected objects and surfaces - not about what happens once the virus is inside your body.

One of the main ways of catching the virus is by breathing in droplets expelled by an infected person, mainly by sneezing and coughing. The virus very quickly begins to multiply and spread, eventually reaching the lungs.

Not only does consuming or injecting disinfectant risk poisoning and death, it's not even likely to be effective.

Equally, by the time the virus has taken hold inside your body, no amount of UV light on your skin is going to make a difference.

And since UV radiation damages the skin, using it to kill the virus could be a case of - to borrow a well-worn phrase - the cure being worse than



Edited by SteveG - April 24 2020 at 06:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2020 at 05:07
Originally posted by essexboyinwales essexboyinwales wrote:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177

What an absolute f**kwit this man is.  1 for even having these thoughts, and 2 for having the whole conversation (pretty much with himself) at a press conference in front of millions who seem to take his word for anything...

May I suggest that he nominates himself to be the first to trial the injection of disinfectant?  I mean, he's not a doctor, but he's got a good you-know-what...

Shocked
Hopefully there aren't thousands of Trump supporters trying this out as we speak...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2020 at 04:57
There are now about 890,000 confirmed cases and 50372 confirmed deaths in the USA alone, which makes the mortality rate more than double as high as I originally calculated. Anybody still laughing at my initial calculation?


Edited by BaldFriede - April 24 2020 at 05:06


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2020 at 03:56
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-52407177

What an absolute f**kwit this man is.  1 for even having these thoughts, and 2 for having the whole conversation (pretty much with himself) at a press conference in front of millions who seem to take his word for anything...

May I suggest that he nominates himself to be the first to trial the injection of disinfectant?  I mean, he's not a doctor, but he's got a good you-know-what...

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 20 2020 at 08:26
I read the article. I can largely see the basis of what he's saying, but I think it is fundamentally misguided and really really off the mark. In particular it is frustrating to see the "nobody knows what is going on" conflation with "we do not know exactly what is happening but we have a range in which we can be exceedingly confident" which is used as a lazy way to tear down real knowledge. 

And then there's something like this, which with no exaggeration, is f**king insane. 

Originally posted by Article Article wrote:

I will conclude by invoking one more dimension of the relationship between humans and viruses. Viruses are integral to evolution, not just of humans but of all eukaryotes. Viruses can transfer DNA from organism to organism, sometimes inserting it into the germline (where it becomes heritable). Known as horizontal gene transfer, this is a primary mechanism of evolution, allowing life to evolve together much faster than is possible through random mutation. As Lynn Margulis once put it, we are our viruses.

And now let me venture into speculative territory. Perhaps the great diseases of civilization have quickened our biological and cultural evolution, bestowing key genetic information and offering both individual and collective initiation. Could the current pandemic be just that? Novel RNA codes are spreading from human to human, imbuing us with new genetic information; at the same time, we are receiving other, esoteric, “codes” that ride the back of the biological ones, disrupting our narratives and systems in the same way that an illness disrupts bodily physiology. The phenomenon follows the template of initiation: separation from normality, followed by a dilemma, breakdown, or ordeal, followed (if it is to be complete) by reintegration and celebration.



Edited by Equality 7-2521 - April 20 2020 at 08:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 06:08
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where's the arguing in that picture? Test and trace is a way to end the lockdown. It was not a viable policy for the point in the outbreaks that Western countries found themselves when they took action as it requires both a floor of testing ability and ceiling of cases. 

Indeed it does require a floor of testing ability. You are spot on, and governments were warned about this quite some time ago. That is a failure of policy and infrastructure.

I would like you to have a look at this article below. It was sent to me by my wife, and, although very long, makes some extremely interesting points about our attitudes as a society, and the potential fallout from all of this.


I'll do my best to finish it. Though given Eisenstein's publication history I might not be able to. 

Okay, thank you. I might point out that until this morning when my wife sent me the link, I had never heard of himEmbarrassed
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:53
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where's the arguing in that picture? Test and trace is a way to end the lockdown. It was not a viable policy for the point in the outbreaks that Western countries found themselves when they took action as it requires both a floor of testing ability and ceiling of cases. 

Indeed it does require a floor of testing ability. You are spot on, and governments were warned about this quite some time ago. That is a failure of policy and infrastructure.

I would like you to have a look at this article below. It was sent to me by my wife, and, although very long, makes some extremely interesting points about our attitudes as a society, and the potential fallout from all of this.


I'll do my best to finish it. Though given Eisenstein's publication history I might not be able to. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:51
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Interesting article from Sweden:


This isn't to nitpick the article which is mostly fine but 

- Cross cultural / geographic comparisons make little sense to me. Policies that work in Siberia aren't necessarily those that work for Miami beach. 

- The idea that flattening the curve to prevent ICU overload is the 'point' of lockdowns is odd. The point is to save lives. Preventing health system collapse of course is a huge part of that but you know we also want less people to die irrespective of whether that occurs or not. 

"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:48
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

Where's the arguing in that picture? Test and trace is a way to end the lockdown. It was not a viable policy for the point in the outbreaks that Western countries found themselves when they took action as it requires both a floor of testing ability and ceiling of cases. 

Indeed it does require a floor of testing ability. You are spot on, and governments were warned about this quite some time ago. That is a failure of policy and infrastructure.

I would like you to have a look at this article below. It was sent to me by my wife, and, although very long, makes some extremely interesting points about our attitudes as a society, and the potential fallout from all of this.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 05:37
Where's the arguing in that picture? Test and trace is a way to end the lockdown. It was not a viable policy for the point in the outbreaks that Western countries found themselves when they took action as it requires both a floor of testing ability and ceiling of cases. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 02:00
And I have pasted the article below from The Observer online this morning. Another fascinating insight into how scientists, epidemiologists, and other experts are arguing like cat and dog over what is the best way forward, as I have said on this site ad nauseum.

A major British city should be used to trial mass testing as a way out of the coronavirus lockdown, according to a group of leading epidemiologists and public health experts.

They warn that simply using periods of mass lockdowns and relaxations to control the virus could lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people before a vaccine becomes available “with the most disadvantaged groups experiencing the greatest suffering”.

Instead, the group states that one or more cities with a population of 200,000 to 300,000 – about a dozen ranging in size from Aberdeen to Bradford – should be used to trial a mass-testing programme. The group includes Julian Peto, a professor at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine, David Hunter, professor of epidemiology at the University of Oxford, and Nisreen A Alwan, an associate professor in public health at Southampton University.

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“Quarantine would end when all residents of the household test negative at the same time. Everyone else in the city can resume normal life, if they choose to,” said the group in a letter to the Lancet journal. “A decision to proceed with national roll-out can then be made. If the epidemic is controlled, hundreds of thousands of lives could be saved, intensive care units will no longer be overloaded, and the effects of lockdown on mental ill-health and unemployment will end.”

It comes amid continuing doubts about how the government came to its testing target of 100,000 a day by the end of the month. Medical experts and scientists have suggested that it is both too big for the current demand from key workers who think they are infected, and too low to be useful for a mass “test and trace” strategy to loosen the lockdown.

Allan Wilson, president of the Institute of Biomedical Science (IBMS) which represents NHS lab staff and biomedical scientists, said there “was no evidence base” to the figure. He said: “No one, as far as I can see, has built it up from the bottom, depending on predicted demand. It’s not an easy thing to do, but even looking at various scenarios would help.”

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 19 2020 at 01:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2020 at 20:22
These next few weeks will be TOUGH! As I think many states will be seeing more outside activity with people going to parks, beaches and not doing the social distance thingy.
State Governors better get a handle on what they want to allow or not allow and be clear, already seeing pics of Florida beaches full of people. I hear here in WA that parks are going to open up and some farmers markets??

One thing is for sure, people want to go back to work.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 18 2020 at 13:35
Fortunate for us we have been gardening for 50 years on the same one third acre and do not need anything from big box stores or nurseries. We are still practicing stay at home social distancing. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2020 at 06:50
Originally posted by The Dark Elf The Dark Elf wrote:

Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

US COVID deaths have passed US influenza deaths for this year. So the just the flu people can officially stop throwing that ridiculous stat into the aether. 

Yes, I've actually seen some minimization comments on the Web relating this to the "common cold". Here in Michigan, we had a group of folks protesting in the state capitol because the inconvenience of not being able to go to Home Depot to buy grass seed and fertilizer ran counter to their Constitutional right to have a healthy front lawn. I believe it is a secondary item in the 2nd Amendment, the "Guns and Grass" clause.

I do think the fact that supply stores like Home Depot are operating but in some places closing their garden centers is a bit draconian. Gardening is a good activity for people right now. I'd imagine having safe outlets probably helps with the ability of social distancing to persist in the long run. 
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2020 at 06:48
It's not a pointless question. It's entirely germane to what you're saying. You claim that the economic and societal damage of the lockdown is going to outweigh that of the virus itself. That necessitates that you have some sort of bound on the damage done by COVID if it was unchecked. Otherwise your statement is meaningless. 

On the other hand, the question you asked me is just a pointless prediction. I don't need to have an estimate of the number of flu deaths sans vaccine because I'm making no claim contingent upon having such an estimate. Having said that, a really dumb estimate from looking at historical CFR suggests something like 200k with a substantial right skew on the error. 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 17 2020 at 00:44
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

According to CDC stats that would not be accurate. 

How many do you think would have died up to this point without the lockdowns and mobilization of testing / PPE? 

By God, this is dull and pointless. You insist on bandying these figures about, which really is missing completely the points and opinions I have been making, which are political, social, and economic, not a “which is the worst” game.

But, if you really insist, the obvious answer to your question, which is meaningless, is I have not got a f**king clue. If I did, I would be a lottery winner many times over owing to an ability to know an unknown.

Pointless question for you. How many people do you think would have died from flu without the vaccine?

See? Fun this, isn’t it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2020 at 19:12
According to CDC stats that would not be accurate. 

How many do you think would have died up to this point without the lockdowns and mobilization of testing / PPE? 
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 16 2020 at 12:15
Originally posted by Equality 7-2521 Equality 7-2521 wrote:

US COVID deaths have passed US influenza deaths for this year. So the just the flu people can officially stop throwing that ridiculous stat into the aether. 

The stats I see show that, on average, 61,000 people die from flu annually in the US. I think you now have 30,000 Covid deaths?

Having said that, pointlessly bandying figures about, it does seem likely to me that Covid deaths will continue to rise with you, and may well exceed annual flu deaths.

It does not, though, change at all my stance on tackling the virus and the multiple deaths and deprivation the lockdown is and will cause.
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