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npjnpj 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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 Posted: May 06 2020 at 00:38 |
Mainly the red US states seem to be taking a breathtaking attitude in starting
to open everything up even this week, especially those with meat packing
facilities. No problem.
I remember for the last few years that the question was asked
how someone like Donald Trump were to be confronted with a real crisis
(not counting natural weather catastrophes, apparently). We have now
seen his response to the Corona virus. As a crisis, it doesn't get much bigger than
that. And he's still in with a chance for reelection?
I’m imagining a psychological test scenario where an imaginary train track switch leads onto two separate tracks: one with the population, and one with the economy. Which do you run over?
Well, it seems that the Trump solution is to move one of them over so that one track now contains the population AND the economy, and run both of them over. What the hell is going on over there? Get rid of that nut job before everyone dies.
Edited by npjnpj - May 06 2020 at 00:39
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: May 04 2020 at 09:14 |
 lazland wrote:
Exceptional opinion piece by Simon Jenkins in today’s Guardian. Jenkins was a lone voice in 2008 when he, rightly, called for government not to bailout the banks, but provide monies to citizens instead, something I strongly agreed with at the time.
In time to come, I think this article will prove to be absolutely on the money.
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Yes, even in the US the lockdown is lopsided but the grip is slowly being untightened.
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npjnpj
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 05 2007
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 2720
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Posted: May 04 2020 at 08:48 |
That was only 12 years ago. Give trickle-down economics a chance, will ya? Any Trump University graduate will tell you that.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13764
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Posted: May 01 2020 at 12:09 |
Exceptional opinion piece by Simon Jenkins in today’s Guardian. Jenkins was a lone voice in 2008 when he, rightly, called for government not to bailout the banks, but provide monies to citizens instead, something I strongly agreed with at the time.
In time to come, I think this article will prove to be absolutely on the money.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15926
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Posted: April 30 2020 at 03:13 |
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Huntington Beach - yeah - Slayer !!!
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18089
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Posted: April 30 2020 at 00:43 |
Catcher10 wrote:
verslibre wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Well as much as I agree with you, it may be a bit early to "open back up". But ND is not the problem, again since you mention a political plug....Have you seen what Calif and Washington have allowed, the Dem capitols of the west coast? All So Cal beaches were populated this past weekend, people were out in droves basking in the sun and frolicking in the ocean. Here in WA state, parks were opened back up and people were again out in numbers hanging out, as well a very popular farmers market near Seattle was open this past weekend. The messages these states are sending to the public is highly confusing..........So based on what these two large populated states are allowing, how can you blame ND? |
Only Newport Beach and Huntington Beach (in Orange County) opened, so everyone flocked there. San Diego County is only beginning to open their beaches, slowly, as of Monday. Los Angeles County has yet to follow suit. |
I grew up in So Cal and Huntington Beach was it, we did all our surfing there. I guess to me a beach just goes on into another one...but I agree with your correction, thanks. Also not sure of the validity but I heard on news less than 10 people were arrested, probably for disorderly conduct  . |
I didn't hear that part, but I believe it.
Whelp, the Gov'nor didn't like what he saw, i.e. the footage of all those people descending on the beaches of NewHuntPortington and is expected to announce ALL beaches shall be closed till further notice.
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17949
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 22:38 |
verslibre wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
Well as much as I agree with you, it may be a bit early to "open back up". But ND is not the problem, again since you mention a political plug....Have you seen what Calif and Washington have allowed, the Dem capitols of the west coast? All So Cal beaches were populated this past weekend, people were out in droves basking in the sun and frolicking in the ocean. Here in WA state, parks were opened back up and people were again out in numbers hanging out, as well a very popular farmers market near Seattle was open this past weekend. The messages these states are sending to the public is highly confusing..........So based on what these two large populated states are allowing, how can you blame ND? |
Only Newport Beach and Huntington Beach (in Orange County) opened, so everyone flocked there. San Diego County is only beginning to open their beaches, slowly, as of Monday. Los Angeles County has yet to follow suit. |
I grew up in So Cal and Huntington Beach was it, we did all our surfing there. I guess to me a beach just goes on into another one...but I agree with your correction, thanks. Also not sure of the validity but I heard on news less than 10 people were arrested, probably for disorderly conduct .
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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13148
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 11:13 |
Catcher10 wrote:
The non-essential record playerA man, walking down a public street, is stopped by an obese policewoman who asks him, “Where are you going, Sir?” “I’m going to buy a record player.” “Sir, I’m sorry but you can’t do that.” “What do you mean, I can’t do that?” “Sir, a record player is not an essential item.” “How can you possibly know what is essential to me?” “Sir, you are only permitted to go out to buy food or medicines.” “Well, I don’t need any medicines because music is my medicine; therefore, it is essential for me.” “Sir, music is non-essential.” “Who decided that?” “The government.” “The government cannot possibly know what is or isn’t essential for any human being, can it?” “Sir, you must return to your house now.” “And if I don’t?” “Sir, I will have to arrest you.” “For wanting to buy a record player?”
“No Sir, for violating the quarantine order.” “But you are violating the same quarantine order, are you not?” “No Sir, I am not. I am an essential worker.” “You don’t look very essential to me. What exactly is essential about you?” “Sir, it is my job to enforce the law.” “So, why don’t you go and arrest the bankers who destroyed our economy.” “I’m not authorised to do that, Sir.” “I see. You are authorised to arrest me for wanting to buy a product, but not a banker for fraud?” “Sir, I must ask you to return to your home immediately.” “But my record player is broken, and I therefore must buy a new one, as it is essential to my well-being.” “Sir, the shop that sells record players is closed.” “Why the f**k didn’t you tell me that in the first place.” The man turns around and starts walking home, wondering if he should be grateful or regretful that he forgot to bring his baseball bat with him. (https://recordplayer.com/the-non-essential-record-player/)
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Sorry, but this is a badly-written allegory. And some jackass referring to a policeman/woman (who is referred to as "obese" -- I guess to show she is inefficient and useless) as "non-essential" is asinine (I can see the taser coming out any minute). And to top it off, the dolt is walking to a store without even knowing it's open? And he is angry at the cop for not informing him of his own ignorance earlier on? On another level, does anyone actually walk to a store to buy a record player? Is this an actual turntable, or is this guy getting one of those old-school record players that looks fine and antique-y up on a shelf but which would tear up expensive vinyl? This story could be cut to a couple sentences by the cop stating, "order your record player online and have it delivered like everyone else, and get your whiny butt effing home before I cuff you."
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
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verslibre
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 01 2004
Location: CA
Status: Offline
Points: 18089
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 10:20 |
Catcher10 wrote:
Well as much as I agree with you, it may be a bit early to "open back up". But ND is not the problem, again since you mention a political plug....Have you seen what Calif and Washington have allowed, the Dem capitols of the west coast? All So Cal beaches were populated this past weekend, people were out in droves basking in the sun and frolicking in the ocean. Here in WA state, parks were opened back up and people were again out in numbers hanging out, as well a very popular farmers market near Seattle was open this past weekend. The messages these states are sending to the public is highly confusing..........So based on what these two large populated states are allowing, how can you blame ND? |
Only Newport Beach and Huntington Beach (in Orange County) opened, so everyone flocked there. San Diego County is only beginning to open their beaches, slowly, as of Monday. Los Angeles County has yet to follow suit.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 10:15 |
Catcher10 wrote:
SteveG wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
The non-essential record playerA man, walking down a public street, is stopped by an obese policewoman who asks him, “Where are you going, Sir?” “I’m going to buy a record player.” “Sir, I’m sorry but you can’t do that.” “What do you mean, I can’t do that?” “Sir, a record player is not an essential item.” “How can you possibly know what is essential to me?” “Sir, you are only permitted to go out to buy food or medicines.” “Well, I don’t need any medicines because music is my medicine; therefore, it is essential for me.” “Sir, music is non-essential.” “Who decided that?” “The government.” “The government cannot possibly know what is or isn’t essential for any human being, can it?” “Sir, you must return to your house now.” “And if I don’t?” “Sir, I will have to arrest you.” “For wanting to buy a record player?”
“No Sir, for violating the quarantine order.” “But you are violating the same quarantine order, are you not?” “No Sir, I am not. I am an essential worker.” “You don’t look very essential to me. What exactly is essential about you?” “Sir, it is my job to enforce the law.” “So, why don’t you go and arrest the bankers who destroyed our economy.” “I’m not authorised to do that, Sir.” “I see. You are authorised to arrest me for wanting to buy a product, but not a banker for fraud?” “Sir, I must ask you to return to your home immediately.” “But my record player is broken, and I therefore must buy a new one, as it is essential to my well-being.” “Sir, the shop that sells record players is closed.” “Why the f**k didn’t you tell me that in the first place.” The man turns around and starts walking home, wondering if he should be grateful or regretful that he forgot to bring his baseball bat with him. (https://recordplayer.com/the-non-essential-record-player/)
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It was just a matter of time before the anti lockdown rhetoric started to seep in. I enjoy the Fox/Hannity crowd praising North Dakota for opening back up and being held up as a model for the rest of the country, forgetting that ND has a fraction of the population of East and West coast states and that the virus has had little impact there with only 19 deaths so far. Talk about a bubble. |
Well as much as I agree with you, it may be a bit early to "open back up". But ND is not the problem, again since you mention a political plug....Have you seen what Calif and Washington have allowed, the Dem capitols of the west coast? All So Cal beaches were populated this past weekend, people were out in droves basking in the sun and frolicking in the ocean. Here in WA state, parks were opened back up and people were again out in numbers hanging out, as well a very popular farmers market near Seattle was open this past weekend. The messages these states are sending to the public is highly confusing..........So based on what these two large populated states are allowing, how can you blame ND? |
Two wrongs never make a right. However, ND did not get the inspiration to open from California and Washington state, that came from the Republican's crying for their freedom. Just like the old Revolutionary war slogan " Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death!". And Republicans always take things literally, so...
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17949
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 10:06 |
SteveG wrote:
Catcher10 wrote:
The non-essential record playerA man, walking down a public street, is stopped by an obese policewoman who asks him, “Where are you going, Sir?” “I’m going to buy a record player.” “Sir, I’m sorry but you can’t do that.” “What do you mean, I can’t do that?” “Sir, a record player is not an essential item.” “How can you possibly know what is essential to me?” “Sir, you are only permitted to go out to buy food or medicines.” “Well, I don’t need any medicines because music is my medicine; therefore, it is essential for me.” “Sir, music is non-essential.” “Who decided that?” “The government.” “The government cannot possibly know what is or isn’t essential for any human being, can it?” “Sir, you must return to your house now.” “And if I don’t?” “Sir, I will have to arrest you.” “For wanting to buy a record player?”
“No Sir, for violating the quarantine order.” “But you are violating the same quarantine order, are you not?” “No Sir, I am not. I am an essential worker.” “You don’t look very essential to me. What exactly is essential about you?” “Sir, it is my job to enforce the law.” “So, why don’t you go and arrest the bankers who destroyed our economy.” “I’m not authorised to do that, Sir.” “I see. You are authorised to arrest me for wanting to buy a product, but not a banker for fraud?” “Sir, I must ask you to return to your home immediately.” “But my record player is broken, and I therefore must buy a new one, as it is essential to my well-being.” “Sir, the shop that sells record players is closed.” “Why the f**k didn’t you tell me that in the first place.” The man turns around and starts walking home, wondering if he should be grateful or regretful that he forgot to bring his baseball bat with him. (https://recordplayer.com/the-non-essential-record-player/)
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It was just a matter of time before the anti lockdown rhetoric started to seep in. I enjoy the Fox/Hannity crowd praising North Dakota for opening back up and being held up as a model for the rest of the country, forgetting that ND has a fraction of the population of East and West coast states and that the virus has had little impact there with only 19 deaths so far. Talk about a bubble. |
Well as much as I agree with you, it may be a bit early to "open back up". But ND is not the problem, again since you mention a political plug....Have you seen what Calif and Washington have allowed, the Dem capitols of the west coast? All So Cal beaches were populated this past weekend, people were out in droves basking in the sun and frolicking in the ocean. Here in WA state, parks were opened back up and people were again out in numbers hanging out, as well a very popular farmers market near Seattle was open this past weekend. The messages these states are sending to the public is highly confusing..........So based on what these two large populated states are allowing, how can you blame ND?
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15926
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 04:43 |
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All it takes are some asymptomatic folks to mix with the vulnerable and everything is once again compromised. To early to jump the gun IMO.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 04:21 |
npjnpj wrote:
In a way both of you are correct.
Too many people have gone undiagnosed and recovered, and too many people have died without proper diagnosis. Even now, the numbers are accounted on differing criteria in different areas. Some countries record the cause of death as non-corona related if another underlying illness exists, and some don’t, etc.
Just for statistical purposes, correct and complete testing will not supply the data required for comprehensive results; that time has passed and can't be corrected.
Even if you have some isolated area that you could analyse from scratch (a cruise ship or something similar), the study group would probably be too small for the data to be applied to the whole pandemic. Close, but not close enough.
So in a way, we probably won’t know the exact numbers, but then again, we don’t have the exact numbers for seasonal flu either. Does it matter? Probably not. At least not for statistical purposes alone.
So we don’t really have a choice but to make do with estimates and work with them. Not ideal, but not a deal-breaker either.
What worries me a bit is that the numbers we have at the moment are (still) vague enough so that they can be interpreted and (mis)used for differing purposes. Open everything up again? Sure,why not; look at the numbers. Stay shut down? Sure, why not; look at the numbers.
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That is only one way to look at it. The safest way to protect life and limb is still by quarantining at this juncture.
The less safe way is to open back up without all of the necessary testing that's needed to insure that we have a firm handle on the amount of infected people and that is still a ways off. Don't be fooled by the lessening amount of infections and deaths. Those initial estimates were arrived at without the country ever being quarantined, something that was thought impossible at the onslaught of C-19.
Think about it. The entire US almost shutdown? It had never been done before and there was no plan in place to do it.
Edited by SteveG - April 29 2020 at 04:27
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20616
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 04:17 |
Catcher10 wrote:
The non-essential record playerA man, walking down a public street, is stopped by an obese policewoman who asks him, “Where are you going, Sir?” “I’m going to buy a record player.” “Sir, I’m sorry but you can’t do that.” “What do you mean, I can’t do that?” “Sir, a record player is not an essential item.” “How can you possibly know what is essential to me?” “Sir, you are only permitted to go out to buy food or medicines.” “Well, I don’t need any medicines because music is my medicine; therefore, it is essential for me.” “Sir, music is non-essential.” “Who decided that?” “The government.” “The government cannot possibly know what is or isn’t essential for any human being, can it?” “Sir, you must return to your house now.” “And if I don’t?” “Sir, I will have to arrest you.” “For wanting to buy a record player?”
“No Sir, for violating the quarantine order.” “But you are violating the same quarantine order, are you not?” “No Sir, I am not. I am an essential worker.” “You don’t look very essential to me. What exactly is essential about you?” “Sir, it is my job to enforce the law.” “So, why don’t you go and arrest the bankers who destroyed our economy.” “I’m not authorised to do that, Sir.” “I see. You are authorised to arrest me for wanting to buy a product, but not a banker for fraud?” “Sir, I must ask you to return to your home immediately.” “But my record player is broken, and I therefore must buy a new one, as it is essential to my well-being.” “Sir, the shop that sells record players is closed.” “Why the f**k didn’t you tell me that in the first place.” The man turns around and starts walking home, wondering if he should be grateful or regretful that he forgot to bring his baseball bat with him. (https://recordplayer.com/the-non-essential-record-player/)
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It was just a matter of time before the anti lockdown rhetoric started to seep in. I enjoy the Fox/Hannity crowd praising North Dakota for opening back up and being held up as a model for the rest of the country, forgetting that ND has a fraction of the population of East and West coast states and that the virus has had little impact there with only 19 deaths so far. Talk about a bubble.
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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rdtprog
Special Collaborator
Heavy, RPI, Symph, JR/F Canterbury Teams
Joined: April 04 2009
Location: Mtl, QC
Status: Offline
Points: 5348
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 02:59 |
Icarium wrote:
my curves (muscles ) are also flattening  but my jogging regiment have increased during collectiv quarentine time. |
Our province will start opening business May 11th, but unfortunately the gym are not part of business who can open. Despite having more death cases than everyone else in Canada we decided to take the risk to get out of our confinement. We're going to serve as a guinea pig for the rest of Canada.
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Music is the refuge of souls ulcerated by happiness.
Emile M. Cioran
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13764
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Posted: April 29 2020 at 00:19 |
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Catcher10
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: December 23 2009
Location: Emerald City
Status: Offline
Points: 17949
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Posted: April 28 2020 at 22:33 |
The non-essential record playerA man, walking down a public street, is stopped by an obese policewoman who asks him, “Where are you going, Sir?” “I’m going to buy a record player.” “Sir, I’m sorry but you can’t do that.” “What do you mean, I can’t do that?” “Sir, a record player is not an essential item.” “How can you possibly know what is essential to me?” “Sir, you are only permitted to go out to buy food or medicines.” “Well, I don’t need any medicines because music is my medicine; therefore, it is essential for me.” “Sir, music is non-essential.” “Who decided that?” “The government.” “The government cannot possibly know what is or isn’t essential for any human being, can it?” “Sir, you must return to your house now.” “And if I don’t?” “Sir, I will have to arrest you.” “For wanting to buy a record player?”
“No Sir, for violating the quarantine order.” “But you are violating the same quarantine order, are you not?” “No Sir, I am not. I am an essential worker.” “You don’t look very essential to me. What exactly is essential about you?” “Sir, it is my job to enforce the law.” “So, why don’t you go and arrest the bankers who destroyed our economy.” “I’m not authorised to do that, Sir.” “I see. You are authorised to arrest me for wanting to buy a product, but not a banker for fraud?” “Sir, I must ask you to return to your home immediately.” “But my record player is broken, and I therefore must buy a new one, as it is essential to my well-being.” “Sir, the shop that sells record players is closed.” “Why the f**k didn’t you tell me that in the first place.” The man turns around and starts walking home, wondering if he should be grateful or regretful that he forgot to bring his baseball bat with him. (https://recordplayer.com/the-non-essential-record-player/)
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 21 2008
Location: Tigerstaden
Status: Offline
Points: 34076
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Posted: April 28 2020 at 11:45 |
my curves (muscles ) are also flattening but my jogging regiment have increased during collectiv quarentine time.
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Tom Ozric
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2005
Location: Olympus Mons
Status: Offline
Points: 15926
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Posted: April 28 2020 at 09:16 |
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I like how this term ‘flattening the curve’ was virtually unheard of before Covid19, now most everyone is saying it.......
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 15006
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Posted: April 28 2020 at 08:47 |
CosmicVibration wrote:
So how long do you shut down? No country can sustain a 1 year shut
down. For some 1 month is not
sustainable.
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I'm not a politician, I don't have to decide that, and I do think the side effects of shutting down are severe. Why does everyone who makes the legitimate point that lockdown leads to big problems also need to make some kind of nonsense point about it probably not helping (much)? Isn't it possible to accept that there are very good reasons for and against lockdown?
“If all we do is flatten the curve, you don’t prevent deaths,
you just change the dates.” - World
class risk modelers
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Show me somebody who says this and I show you somebody who is surely not a "world class risk modeller". Well, actually I've got to change my mind on that and say, of course this is so. All we ever do when surviving is just changing the date of our death.  Except you'd still not expect your risk modeller of choice to make that point.
PS: By the way your Dr. Katz does a lot of boasting about "world class", "who is who" etc. Later he says that he thinks what Sweden is doing is too liberal in his opinion, and that it seems they have more deaths than necessary. Which runs counter to his earlier catchy "we only change the date" message. (Except that in fact we indeed only change the date, but that doesn't mean anything.  ) Oh, he also says "98-99% of all cases are mild", which is nonsense. At the very best he can say we don't have a clue about that, those who have good reasons to think they do rather say that something like 98-99% don't die, see above.
Edited by Lewian - April 28 2020 at 09:16
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Covid-19 and the madness of crowds
