Ultravox and beyond |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:40 | ||
You have outlined criteria by which I more-or-less determine whether a particular artist or album gets included into my record collection or not. I would not use the same criteria for music that is included into a database of Progressive Rock. I do not find this boxed or linear, and I would hope that the bands I have introduced, voted for and included here are a testament to that. I always worked on the principle of "best fit" rather than "exact fit" during evaluations and to do that I still needed to recognise demarcation lines between genres and subgenres regardless of how blurred and ill defined they may be. For me rejecting bands was never easy and we did/do consider every suggestion on the merits of the music alone, detached from any preconceptions or personal bias and strived to be as objective as possible. I have stated many times in the past that additions to the database are incremental: every addition changes the entry criteria by some subtle degree because artists do not work within the strict confines of any pigeon-holing imposed by record labels, critics and the listening public. You cannot extrapolate (or interpolate) a linear progression from one inclusion to the next, but several unrelated additions can lead to the possibility of suggesting and evaluating another artist that previously would not have been considered, this does not result in an automatic shoe-in even when applying a "best fit" philosophy - the music has to be evaluated against the subgenre as a whole and not a subset of it. Within the strict guidelines of Prog Related as specified on the PR page we could include considerably more artists that we currently do, but that would significantly alter the whole nature and emphasis of this site and what it is for.
It is and it isn't, we are a pigeon-holing fraternity, all music fans are even when they are determined not to be. That goes way beyond just sorting albums into "like" and "dislike" or the vagaries of an open or closed mind. Even the most open-minded and eclectic music-lover will categorise music by some form of organised sorting of styles, genres and loose associations.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 04:09 | ||
So in 15 years we should expect inclusion of Lene Lovich to PA too
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Chris S
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 09 2004 Location: Front Range Status: Offline Points: 7028 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:40 | ||
Give PA another 10 years and maybe they will be revisited then. What's a decade anyway? Ultravox - borderline, f&%k yeah why not, but i would include bands like The Sound, The Cure before Ultravox, subjectively speaking
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...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65306 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:33 | ||
^ no but it had balls -
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"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 03:00 | ||
Fair enough. I guess. That , ladies and gentlemen, was one opinion. Any dissenting voices ? BTW, how can one champion someone who is ineligible?
Not good planning, wot? Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 03:02 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:57 | ||
Well, no. It was the wrong word used incorrectly. Resolute implies we were determined to reject them come what may and nothing could be further from the truth. A search of the forum will show that I have frequently 'championed' John Foxx and Ultravox! and tried to make a case for their inclusion but I couldn't even convince myself of their eligibility.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:45 | ||
Attaque, parade, riposte , contre-attaque, parade....Touche!
Rejection is to the rejectee, both resounding and resolute.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:37 | ||
Sorry - resolute was the wrong word, I meant resoundingly (it was 2 a.m.)
Edited by Dean - September 01 2014 at 02:40 |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 02:29 | ||
I know nothing , in fact nothing at all! But I was hoping for some possible appeal decision to add Ultravox in prog-related which is why i posted here but it was 'resolutely rejected' by the PA politburo. Maybe a conversation ..... but its NO , and NO means NO. Jebi me, as they say!
Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 02:31 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:48 | ||
Of course this thread belongs to PA, why not, but in GENERAL MUSIC DISCUSSIONS sub-forum and you know it, comrade.. Edited by Svetonio - September 01 2014 at 01:51 |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:19 | ||
Actually, druze, the thread does not belong at all on PA.
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 01:16 | ||
Mmm, I say, old bean, somewhat too salty , no ?
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:41 | ||
Dean sums it up perfectly.
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Svetonio
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 20 2010 Location: Serbia Status: Offline Points: 10213 |
Posted: September 01 2014 at 00:28 | ||
I agree 100% with the Team who voted *NO* for Ultravox.
edit: this thread would be moved by the forum moderator to General Music Discussions, where this thread belongs. Edited by Svetonio - September 01 2014 at 00:35 |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 23:40 | ||
Dear Dean, your highly enlightening (and very standard) comment about progressive rock's parameters are not at all agreeing with my own definition. I consider progressive in simpler terms , something beyond the three minute Ramones-like guitar, bass and drum, verse chorus entity. Progressive rock, pour moi, evolved (I stress the word EVOLVE) from the infusion of keyboard elements namely electrified ivories and particularly the synthesizer , which made rock progress into more complex arrangements. Adding various "modern" sounds helped charting a new course for basic rock and roll. You find it boxed and musically linear ? Fine. On Fragile, Ure's latest, the instrumentation is very detailed, technical and definitely with symphonic tendencies. Doesn't really matter to me whether Ultravox gets approved by the system or not. I just find quick-wristed /slice and dice/ lack of open-mindedness (aka pigeon-holing ) the very antithesis of prog and its Achilles heel , frankly. I also have a problem with the words 'resolutely rejecting' , sounds too heavy handed for a obviously intellectually advanced commentator , ex-administrator and current layabout .
Edited by tszirmay - September 01 2014 at 00:02 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Intruder
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 13 2005 Status: Offline Points: 2206 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 22:19 | ||
I could talk myself into it if I plucked those airy synth, electric violin moments from those early Island albums - the only ones I've ever heard from the band....remember those crazy drums (had never heard electric drums until Ha! Ha! Ha!)....Cro-magnon Simple Minds, Japan, even the later beauty that Talk Talk created. But, just spin Fear in the Western World for PA members, then let them decide.
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I like to feel the suspense when you're certain you know I am there.....
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:46 | ||
Fine. Prog-related NO
Ok. Thank you.
Edited by tszirmay - August 31 2014 at 20:48 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 20:13 | ||
Big fan of John Foxx and Ultravox! (John Foxx era), less of a fan of Ultravox with Midge Ure and even less for Midge Ure solo [Wastelands was the best thing he ever recorded but Modern Man did the original much better], my initial enthusiasm for anything involving Midge Ure quickly faded, it just lacked the substance and depth required for repeated listening. He has a great voice, but that's not enough. The major hurdle for including Ultravox! and all the other new-wave artists mentioned in the OP is that they are not Progressive Rock. While some of it has obvious Art Rock, Electronica and Krautrock influence there is the overriding fact that it is the antithesis of Prog in every (musical) respect: the tunes and melodies are not complex and feature no progression or development within a song; song structures and arrangements are box-standard; the instrumental layering is rarely anything more than two-dimensional with no polyphony or counter-point; the rhythms are simple with zero polymeter or polyrhythm; the time sigs are generally common time with no complex or irrational meters; and there are no instrumental excesses or intricate solos. Of course not all Prog Rock contains every element I've listed there, but some of it is present in all Prog since that is what defines it as Prog and remove all of them and what remains is just Pop. Intelligent Pop, but Pop never-the-less. It would be wrong to include any of these bands on the grounds that prominent Prog bands also made Pop albums. [edit] We evaluated Ultravox! (John Foxx era) and Ultravox (Midge Ure era) for Crossover and [/edit] John Foxx's solo career since leaving Ultravox is to my tastes far more interesting (yes he is a genius and in my mind surpasses Brian Eno for creativity and musicianship) but even when he produced superb Ambient albums they are not Electronic Progressive ambient albums - somewhat ironically they are not heavily synthesised electronic (for example Translucence with Harold Budd is predominantly an acoustic album). The music he has created since 1997 is nothing like the New Wave we are discussing here.
Edited by Dean - September 01 2014 at 02:44 |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 17:23 | ||
Systems of Romance was Ultravox's second album, with John Foxx on vocals , I would definitely consider some of the songs I mentioned in my post but the entire album has a special 'cold' feel . Remember , this was 1978, totally ahead of its time ! Otherwise John Foxx had some thrilling electronic music on Metamatic (1980) and the Garden (1981). Need I mention those were prog's bleak years! I get it , there were a lot of commercial tunes during the Midge Ure -era like "Dancing With Tears in my Eyes" and "Passing Strangers" but also stellar pieces like "The Thin Wall", "Rage in Eden" "The Voice" , "Dream On" and "All Fall Down" but perhaps the best is the current "Fragile" , all available on youtube. Seeing Ultravox live as well as Midge Ure , you would undoubtedly appreciate the less-streamlined approach.
Edited by tszirmay - August 31 2014 at 17:29 |
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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chopper
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20030 |
Posted: August 31 2014 at 16:36 | ||
Not sure I'd call them a prog band, prog-related maybe.
Midge Ure's new album was reviewed in the last issue of Prog magazine.
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