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Topic ClosedDream Theater: Prog innovators or merely imitators
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TradeMark0 View Drop Down
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Points: 109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 12:52
Originally posted by Catcher10 Catcher10 wrote:

A lot of musicians are classically trained as kids, started playing the piano and taught by a teacher who probably was classically trained.
I remember when I was in band in elementary school most if not all pcs we were taught to play were from the classical genre.....I was never given music sheets by The Who, Zeppelin, Genesis or the Fab Four. 
True, but I was saying there is a difference between being classically trained and being influenced by a composer, such as how King Crimson was influenced Bartok and Stravinsky.
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Points: 17847 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 12:17
A lot of musicians are classically trained as kids, started playing the piano and taught by a teacher who probably was classically trained.
I remember when I was in band in elementary school most if not all pcs we were taught to play were from the classical genre.....I was never given music sheets by The Who, Zeppelin, Genesis or the Fab Four. 
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 09:29
^his thread just keeps on going and going and....
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Points: 109 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 19 2015 at 04:10
I wonder if dream theater have any actual classical influences. I only recall hearing about their prog influences. And I don't consider being classically trained to be an influence.
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Points: 2673 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2015 at 18:27
Originally posted by cloudstr cloudstr wrote:

They are bad copies of Rush, and Rush absolutely sucks anyway...
Oh?
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Points: 17157 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2015 at 17:56
Originally posted by cloudstr cloudstr wrote:

They are bad copies of Rush, and Rush absolutely sucks anyway...
 
I wager many [prog] bands would love to "suck as badly as" a band like Rush... WinkLOL
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Points: 1413 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2015 at 17:37
Originally posted by cloudstr cloudstr wrote:

They are bad copies of Rush, and Rush absolutely sucks anyway...
Shhh, quiet! 
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Points: 45 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 18 2015 at 15:51
As an artisit it is a delicate balancing act between being "original" and emulating those that inspire you.  Prog rock has  unequivicollay the most loyal fan base in the rock genere (perhaps equaled by jam band rock) but it is almost impossible to not show flashes of who inspired you at some point in the creativity process.

Dream Theater is  both Innovator and Imitator as are almost all Prog Rock bands since the initial wave of the genre is some regards.

Great thread by the way!
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Points: 7 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 17 2015 at 08:13
They are bad copies of Rush, and Rush absolutely sucks anyway...
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 30 2014 at 16:21
I'm not a fan of DT, their discography has weak spots, and they do have their pet cliches.... but there are some things that I have to admit.

I bought Images and Words when it was released and although I could recognize influences in their music, there wasn't any other band (to my knowledge at least) at the time that sounded like them or played their brand of 'sophisticated' metal. And their stylings became something of a blueprint for many bands that I have heard since then...in rock music, this is enough to qualify as innovation, except if you define innovation as the spontaneous appearance of novelty out of nowhere.

Images + Words is still enjoyable to this day, as are bits and pieces here and there. However, I don't find much interest in the majority of their discography... but this is just me...
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Points: 120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2014 at 12:48
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Is it the same? Not always, but I know that if that guitarist was playing a violin, or a flute or anything but an electric guitar, we would be calling him a maestro. And that lack of appreciation is a lot more criminal than the plagiarism.


Well, I think it depends on how many guitar players, violin players, or anything, a person has ever heard. People are fascinated by the things they don't know, and since the guitar is a pretty common instrument, it is more likely for people to criticize a guitarist instead of another instrumentist. Nonetheless, I agree with what you've said.
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Points: 17513 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 18 2014 at 11:45

Originally posted by 'PiphanyRambler 'PiphanyRambler wrote:

If DT had done something original, that would be on Images and Words, and partly on Awake. After those albums I find them either trying to repeat themselves, or taking "inspiration" from other bands (borderline plagiarism in a few occasions).

I don't know that I would consider calling anything "plagiarism" in this day and age.

The media is so spread out, and has made it impossible to miss just about any piece of music out there, and the comparisons are likely to take place.

But it is scary ... pretty soon, everyone will say that Tchaikovsky sounds like Stravinsky and that Stravinsky sounds like the Beatles ... and you're gonna go ... what??????

But to a degree, there is too much "rock'n'roll" and almost all of it sounds the same, and to me, this is just like another guitarist saying that he is playing the blues ... yet again, is just another form of plagiarism ... it's the same notes!

But to a degree there is too much "repetition" of the same thing and process, and this could use a nice upgrade, but it is not as too many bands are more into the commerical sound and sales, than they are the creativity behind it. Some say that you have to eat and what not, but in the end, it's the same thing ... and like saying that no one else had to do it as well!

Is it the same? Not always, but I know that if that guitarist was playing a violin, or a flute or anything but an electric guitar, we would be calling him a maestro. And that lack of appreciation is a lot more criminal than the plagiarism.
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Points: 120 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 16 2014 at 15:36
If DT had done something original, that would be on Images and Words, and partly on Awake. After those albums I find them either trying to repeat themselves, or taking "inspiration" from other bands (borderline plagiarism in a few occasions).
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Points: 17513 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 06 2014 at 19:15
Originally posted by Raff Raff wrote:

Personally, I think DT were in the right place at the right time (the early Nineties) rather than being true innovators.
...
 
And that makes them special, regardless. It takes courage and dedication to their work to do what they did amidst the "wrong audience" and come out on top of it. Not to mention that they also used the Internet very well, and worked the streets to get their following.
 
The tougher part, for us to get, is that a person has to be intelligent enough to "KNOW" when is the right place and the right time ... it helps if you spend more time being involved in the arts, and have a much better idea that there is music out there that is much more than just a 4/4 and only has one design that is called rock'n'roll, and the average audience can't even hear anything different than that because it is so different and tough on their ears!
 
Trust me, in the early days, the folks in radio thought that ELP, KC, Genesis and many others were crap too, until they got their ears cleaned up from their top ten sukkkage! The DJ in Madison played the hit song but got his dig in ... the rest of the album was loud noise! At least bands like ELP got their worth ... whereas idiot dj's got their cucumbers!


Edited by moshkito - November 09 2014 at 14:30
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 03 2014 at 12:32
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Unfortunately micky, DT falls under Progressive Metal, and that changes the rules.


what rules Steve?  Smile

Just what IS really prog about DT? Long songs?, uber w**ker virtuoso musicians?, half ass atttempts to do serious concept albums? It sure wasn't pushing the boundries, those had been pushed years earlier. Sure it is prog but very very little is progressive about it. Not innovative, it isn't like prog metal was the redesign of the wheel. Metal is not THAT different from rock itself. It wasn't some unholy concontion whose merging was out of left field.

DT put some of the more base aspects of prog into metal music and definitely weren't the first.  They were quite influential, especially for 14 year old kids who think showing off on instruments is cool.. err.. prog but they were one of several groups doing prog metal there at the beginning were they not.  You can't lay the whole basis or popularization of it upon them. Can you?  Queensryche were a more melodic and tastefully done version of prog metal (as was Iron Maiden IMO) but predated them and were far more successful in getting to listeners than DT ever were.
I don't want to get into a debate over what is progressive music, micky. I'm a little too long in the tooth to bother with that. But, I would like to point out that at no time did I hold DT to be the poster boys of prog metal, they just happened to be the most popular.

My question asked if they were copiers and compilers of other genre's motifs or if they actually had something original of their own to offer. That's all. If you read more into that, than you've missed the point.


Edited by SteveG - November 03 2014 at 16:16
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Points: 34055 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2014 at 16:25
Opeth were influenced by DT to change from more death metal progressiev metal to a more progressive death metal band becouse of Mikael Åkerfeld heard Scenes from a Memory or saw them live in gothenburg, i don't remember 100% clearly
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Points: 13244 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2014 at 14:46
Dream Theater never made it a secret that Rush was a big influence. Apart from that, combining things that already exist in a new way can be innovative as well. I'm not going to judge here to what extent they did that, but they sure were more than just copy cats. I say 'were', because I can only really judge the first  4 albums. I have the next three as well, but I lost interested in everything metal related around 1996, and never really caught up with what happened in that scene afterwards. Heck, only last week did I listen seriously to Pain Of Salvation for the first time.

Of course, Raff is right in saying they were probably there at the right place and time - I know quite a few Rush fans who were happy to here When Dream And Day Unite, after 10 years of Rush on keyboard-patrol.
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2014 at 14:19
Personally, I think DT were in the right place at the right time (the early Nineties) rather than being true innovators. Their breakthrough album, Images and Words, sounds a lot like an expanded version of what Rush were doing in the Seventies with the likes of 2112, A Farewell to Kings and Hemispheres - with a few Metallica-ish riffs thrown in for good measure, and far worse songwriting. In my opinion, Iron Maiden were muc more successful in blending metal with prog influences, especially from their third album onwards, with songs like "To Tame a Land" or "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner".
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2014 at 13:55
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

^Unfortunately micky, DT falls under Progressive Metal, and that changes the rules.


what rules Steve?  Smile

Just what IS really prog about DT? Long songs?, uber w**ker virtuoso musicians?, half ass atttempts to do serious concept albums? It sure wasn't pushing the boundries, those had been pushed years earlier. Sure it is prog but very very little is progressive about it. Not innovative, it isn't like prog metal was the redesign of the wheel. Metal is not THAT different from rock itself. It wasn't some unholy concontion whose merging was out of left field.

DT put some of the more base aspects of prog into metal music and definitely weren't the first.  They were quite influential, especially for 14 year old kids who think showing off on instruments is cool.. err.. prog but they were one of several groups doing prog metal there at the beginning were they not.  You can't lay the whole basis or popularization of it upon them. Can you?  Queensryche were a more melodic and tastefully done version of prog metal (as was Iron Maiden IMO) but predated them and were far more successful in getting to listeners than DT ever were.
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Points: 20604 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 02 2014 at 13:27
Yup. 4 stars! StarStarStarStar
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