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Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: January 17 2014 at 05:40
The Pessimist wrote:
That doesn't mean it is not a valid question. It is open ended, yes, but that would only mean that the answer would have to cover different scenarios. It's not an irrelevant question, more of a question of when YOU would save 1 for a 1000, or vice versa.
Any answer that begins with "If we..." is not answering the question, it is modifying the question to make it answerable, it is answering a different question or set of questions. Ergo the original question is not a question that has answers, whether that makes it valid or not does not come into it, it is simply, as I said, pointless. You have to modify it with assumed scenarios to give it a point. So, yes you can create a scenario where you would gladly allow a 1000 to die rather than purposely kill one, you can create a scenario where one dies to save a 1000, you can create a scenario where 1003 people die (the 1000, the one, yourself and the person who posed the question) and because you are modifying the question to create those unspecified scenarios then it is perfectly reasonable to argue that you can modify it so that no one dies (except the fat man in the balloon, he will always perish regardless of the scenario, obesity is a killer man). Of course a scientist would repeat the experiment several times to prove the veracity of the data so the death toll will rise considerably regardless of the scenario being played out.
The Pessimist wrote:
Nothing really needs more to be said here, and I think we are on the same page. However, regarding pack animals, humans have come too far to be called merely pack animals. I think our nature is much deeper than that, otherwise how would you explain genocide? Religion? Iconoclasticism? Cults? Our behaviour is somewhat of an anomaly when compared to nature. Of course I only speak from my limited knowledge of the natural world, but so far I have yet to see pack animals mimic a lot of human behaviour. Just my observation...
Mimic is the wrong word, they do not copy us, they can and do exhibit similar behaviour - they will kill and murder, they do kill what they won't eat, they do exhibit cannibalistic behaviour, promiscuity, rape, property theft, bulling, genocide, infanticide and many other "human" behavioural traits. There are many examples of this in all pack animals, including those cute, lovable, highly intelligent dolphins. Our behaviour is not anomalous. (that does not make it excusable nor does it prove your earlier point on "urges")
The Pessimist wrote:
Philosophy's purpose is not to give answers, and it never has been. That still doesn't make it fruitless. Your question "Why does a flower have colour?" Can be broken down in an infinite number of ways, and a Philosophy expert could and would do so. The understanding of this is the essential to the subject.
The transition here from "that question isa very childish one" to "a Philosophy expert could and would" is interesting. While it would be a philosophical curiosity to see the infinite breakdowns I would settle for one that a Philosopher would come up with that a Scientist would not.
The Pessimist wrote:
Dean wrote:
However, Philosophy does not ask those questions, (well not since the Renaissance anyway) - scientist do not go running to the Philosophy department for the next big puzzle to solve. And in my opinion, Philosophy stopped being relevant when it stopped asking those kinds of questions.
Does it not?
No it doesn't
The Pessimist wrote:
I'm not arguing that your disinterest is criminal. However your dismissal of Philosophy still hasn't been justified yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to accept that it is a valid subject of study and that it does produce great thinkers. You haven't proved me wrong yet as far as I can tell.
I'm not attempting to prove you wrong, for that is an impossible task, as is any attempt to change each other's view. I am permitted to doubt Philosophy.
The Pessimist wrote:
Is/was their influence profound? Sure. Should it have been? Probably not. Who is to say this? Really?
A sarcastic person.
The Pessimist wrote:
As you know, Marx himself said that his political philosophy was a dialectic and not to be taken as purist, rather as an ideology that we should strive to be as close to as possible. This would create a sound political regime.That is the soul purpose of extreme academic ideologies.
It hasn't happened yet. In 3000 years of Philosophy it has never happened. It never will. It is attempting to square the circle.
The Pessimist wrote:
Dean wrote:
(I suspect you're not going to understand why I showed that)
I like Gervais, but if he is quoting from the Ubermensch, then he himself has misinterpreted it I believe. Of course the works of someone like Nietzsche can't be taken as absolute in anything however... A writer can't be held responsible for misinterpretation. Often in writing, Nietzsche especially (same with Blake I find), once you diminish its subtlety to crude and blunt, black and white information, you lose its beauty. It is not up to the author to be held responsible for the level in which something is misinterpreted, otherwise the deeper works of said artists would have turned out very dull and soulless indeed. Might I bring up INTENTION too? I'm pretty sure that Nietzsche didn't intend for his works to be used to justify genocide, and thus can't be held responsible if it is. A lot of great artists can be used to justify a lot of things (once again I mention Blake, Marx too), but the artist can't be held responsible if the consumer simply doesn't "get it".
As far as I'm aware, Hitler showed psychopath traits before he read Nietzsche, whether it be due to his mother dying when he was young, his Catholic upbringing or whole multitude of other things.
Nietzsche died when Hitler was eleven years old, he could not have predicted that a psychopath would distort his philosophy, so in that respect Nietzsche is exonerated from direct blame, but since he is supposed to be a Philosopher of some intelligence I find it hard to believe he wasn't aware of the possibility that someone could (especially as eugenics pre-date übermensch). Sure Gervais is misrepresenting both Nietzsche and Hitler for comedic effect, he is using it as an illustration, as was I in showing it. The "that's not what I meant..." retort is not a get out of goal free card. I know that übermensch did not mean go create a master-race and commit genocide, and since Hitler was a German-speaker he was not misuderstanding the concept of "superman" since that translitteration/mistranslation of "übermensch" did not happen, what cannot be denied (or be apologist for) is that it formed the basis for National Socialist ideas. The rules (morals) were made by those with the will to make them, and Hitler had the will to make them.
The Pessimist wrote:
Dean wrote:
Show me one example of Philosophy making life more understandable. Nothing spectacular, just a simple example.
Knowledge of Philosophy is proven to aid critical thinking and enables people who study it to be able to answer difficult questions in a comprehensive and clear manner. To name just one.
I disagree, and that's not an example.
The Pessimist wrote:
Philosophy and religion are two very different things, if that is what you are getting at. People arrive at a religion through philosophy, but philosophies are open ended and cannot be blamed.
All religions have a philosophy, but no, that is not what I am getting at. In that "Give a man a Philosophy..." example religion was irrelevant to the point I made.
The Pessimist wrote:
Dean wrote:
Philosophy does not give us doubt. Doubt is another natural survival trait that every human posses from a very early age - that need to question everything, to take nothing for granted, to never to assume - Early education attempts to drum that out of us - learn by rote, believe what you are told, don't question your elders. Doubting is a philosophical process but it is not the sole property (or invention) of Philosophy.
Which is exactly what I said. Care to present the dichotomy between Philosophy and philosophical processes? I'm unaware of it, forgive my ignorance.
Sorry, where did I say it was a dichotomy? Doubt creates enquiry, enquiry created Philosophy and Science, to claim that Philosophy invented doubt is putting the cart before the horse.
The Pessimist wrote:
And because you don't doesn't mean that it isn't. As you said before, there are no absolutes, although I feel by saying that I've opened the old "subjectivity" can meaning this discussion will probably end soon...
I don't think this is the old "subjectivity" can o'worms, just as I am fully aware that questioning the validity of Philosophy is a philosophical debate, but I'm more than happy for it to end as soon as you're ready.
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: January 17 2014 at 04:03
catfood03 wrote:
Whoever thinks vegetarianism means a limited diet, either doesn't cook for themselves or isn't trying hard to see the possibilities.
The phrase I used was "having a less varied and less interesting diet" - which is undeniably correct. While I never said that was a limited diet, that too is undeniably correct. By definition a vegetarian diet is an omnivore diet limited by the exclusion of meat.
I do cook for myself, as you can see from the posts I have made in the Prog Chefs Unite!!! thread, and though it is harder to prove, I do see the possibilities - I do cook a vegetarian meals, and I oft increase the possibilities by the cunning addition of some meat... Perhaps the following tale will serve as an example of the possibilities I see and the lengths I will go to to achieve it.
These are some elderflower and lemon jellies I made for a christmas lunch party at work - one of our employees is a vegetarian so out of respect for her dietary lifestyle choice I went to the trouble and effort of making these entirely vegetarian, which is not a simple task by any means when what makes a jelly a jelly is gelatine - in the end I used three different vegetarian gelling agents, all of which were difficult to work with. Most of the time vegetarian jelly either ends up as a solid rubberised lump or a revolting gloop of the consistency of snot after a heavy cold - neither of which have the same pleasing mouth-feel as a gelatine based jelly. As you can see from the photograph, the plan was to suspend cubes of lemon jelly in a fizzy clear elderflower jelly topped with a set foam, in normal gelatine this is simple and it even preserves the bubbles in the elderflower cordial flavoured tonic water if you do it right, alas this is not possible for vegetarian gelling agents because the high temperatures required flatten the tonic water but by luck and a fair amount of culinary skill I managed to produce a complicated vegetarian dessert that actually was enjoyable to eat, and that wasn't just my opinion.
catfood03 wrote:
It's amazing the endless varieties I've discovered from shifting my vegetable eating from microwavable side dishes to homemade exquisite main courses.
Oh good grief - microwaveable vegetables are enough to make me want to give up eating vegetables forever - no wonder you found vegetarian main courses a revelation. I do love it when people compare the worse of something they don't like with the best of something the do like.
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Posted: January 16 2014 at 20:01
Dean wrote:
*sigh* this seems like an awful lot of hard work to justify feeling good about having a less varied and less interesting diet.
The Pessimist wrote:
They are not pointless, as your answer to this would explain whether you really do think there is a universal morality or not. They may never happen, but that doesn't mean that these questions shouldn't be answered. Not everything has to be strictly pragmatic, although I think that's probably where the roots of your disdain for philosophy come from: its lack of pragmatism.
You want to use the question to determine which kind of "philosophical" person I am, well, I'm the kind that doesn't answer the question.
That doesn't mean it is not a valid question. It is open ended, yes, but that would only mean that the answer would have to cover different scenarios. It's not an irrelevant question, more of a question of when YOU would save 1 for a 1000, or vice versa.
My answer would not explain anything, and certainly not whether I really do think there is a universal morality. Trying to fathom what I believe based upon my answer is silly - just ask me the direct question. Lack of pragmatism is not a problem, many things in this world lack pragmatism. Is there a universal morality? - no, of course not, that's absurd - there is however, a universal susceptibility (or capability) for morality - whatever that mechanism is it is natural and inherent - call it conscience, empathy, self-preservation, survival instinct, nurture, parent-instinct, selfishness, altruism, herd-instinct, pack-behaviour - whatever, and since nature abhors a vacuum, if the capability is there then a morality will occupy the space. So that is the basis for all morality, it's always been there and it's constant - but it is not a universal morality. We are a social-animal - we need to live in a social group in order to survive. In nature these come in two main flavours - herd and pack: a herd animal is self-sufficient in the food it eats (vegetation) but congregate in large numbers for mutual protection, no animal in the herd is dependant on any other; a pack animal is not self-sufficient in the food it eats (meat or meat and vegetation), it needs other members of the pack to help it gather food and so each animal in the pack dependant on the other members. We fit into the "pack" category, this makes us protective of other animals in the pack because we depend on them to survive. That fundamental basic instinct is the corner-stone of all morality. Your 1 vs 1000 thought experiment is a test of that basic instinct - do we allow one to die so the pack or tribe survives (thus aiding our survival) or do we let the 1000 perish to save the one... well, it depends on the "one" really doesn't it, but since we are denied the necessary information to make an informed decision the answer lacks meaning - pragmatic or otherwise - flipping a coin or rolling a dice is equally as valid in such a bound-limited thought experiment.
Nothing really needs more to be said here, and I think we are on the same page. However, regarding pack animals, humans have come too far to be called merely pack animals. I think our nature is much deeper than that, otherwise how would you explain genocide? Religion? Iconoclasticism? Cults? Our behaviour is somewhat of an anomaly when compared to nature. Of course I only speak from my limited knowledge of the natural world, but so far I have yet to see pack animals mimic a lot of human behaviour. Just my observation...
The Pessimist wrote:
And that question is a very childish one, and doesn't really mock Philosophy at all. How much Philosophy have you actually delved into just out of curiosity? I mean after all, Aristotle arguably created logic. Pythagoras was a philosopher. Nietzsche was an important political writer who's works came out of Philosophy. Marx's Philosophical writings Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto are two of the most influential books in European politics, whether it was misinterpreted or not. You can't argue that it's all disposable codswallop when it's all had such a profound influence on every single walk of life.
Sorry, which question? The flower colour one? That wasn't to mock Philosophy nor is it childish, it was a valid and somewhat typical example of a scientific question - all scientific inquiry starts with that seemingly simple question: 'Why does 'X' have/do/make/cause "Y"?' - you said Philosophy brings up a problem and contemplates it, I merely illustrated that with an example of scientific inquiry that philosophical contemplation would get no further than posing the initial question. The apparently childish "Why does a Flower have colour?" reveals a mass of scientific data from physics, chemistry, biology, physiology, psychology and probably a few others I've not thought of - it is not a simple question.
Philosophy's purpose is not to give answers, and it never has been. That still doesn't make it fruitless. Your question "Why does a flower have colour?" Can be broken down in an infinite number of ways, and a Philosophy expert could and would do so. The understanding of this is the essential to the subject.
However, Philosophy does not ask those questions, (well not since the Renaissance anyway) - scientist do not go running to the Philosophy department for the next big puzzle to solve. And in my opinion, Philosophy stopped being relevant when it stopped asking those kinds of questions.
Does it not?
I have read enough of Philosophy to sit here arguing with you, Aristotle gets a free pass because he was the first true scientist, (his list of achievements are more than just formal logic) (Agreed) but with many of those ancient Greek philosophers, as I have said before, some of them were more than just "Philosophers" in the modern sense, there was no separation of science, art and contemplating your navel, so Aristotle, Pythagoras and later, Archimedes, were as much Scientists as they were Philosophers. (Once again agreed, but just because there were no formal separations doesn't mean that the subjects didn't exist, and furthermore it doesn't decrease any of their validity)Socrates and Plato on the other hand are said to have been less interest in the physical and natural aspects of the world - whether that is true or not we cannot say because we can only judge them on what they left behind, we do know they did contemplate music and light but not in the same physical way that Pythagoras and Aristotle did, they were more interested in the effects of music than the mechanics of it. This interests me en passant because I am interested in science - I would equally cite Galileo and Newton as Philosopher/Scientists of interest for their scientific studies and discoveries, not for their philosophical output. Nietzsche, Kant, Wittgenstein and all those dudes do not interest me, I know enough to know they do not tempt me to look further. I'm not arguing that your disinterest is criminal. However your dismissal of Philosophy still hasn't been justified yet. I'm not asking you to like it, only to accept that it is a valid subject of study and that it does produce great thinkers. You haven't proved me wrong yet as far as I can tell. Is/was their influence profound? Sure. Should it have been? Probably not. Who is to say this? Really? Marx is slightly different because I am a socialist, but let's be honest here - socialism has failed as a political movement, just as every extreme politics will ultimately fail - the concept is noble and sound, but in practice it is untenable in this or any other world - as is any other philosophy. (and probably universal suffrage is the only true success of socialism, though I think Marx believed that socialism would be a consequence of universal suffrage). As you know, Marx himself said that his political philosophy was a dialectic and not to be taken as purist, rather as an ideology that we should strive to be as close to as possible. This would create a sound political regime.That is the soul purpose of extreme academic ideologies.
The Pessimist wrote:
The Philosophy of Science is a cornerstone of science, even though its foundation is circular logic and thus proves science not actually a complete answer at all (but the best we have so far).
Or philosophy of science is the somewhat redundant means of examining what science does from a philosophical viewpoint (this circular logic thing is a gas isn't it It is indeed...). It does not prove that science is not a complete answer at all, it struggles to prove its own worth by making such a claim. Science is well aware that it is not a complete answer - science does not deal in absolutes.
It's a commentary, that is all, which I don't personally see as worthless. And I am well aware. Science can't function in absolutes as we don't know of any absolutes as of late.
The Pessimist wrote:
How the text is interpreted is not up to the author. Least of all can a misinterpretation be blamed on the subject of the text itself. The fault is entirely down to the person doing the misinterpreting.
You do seem to be preoccupied with absolutes. The author is not to blame? Blame is applicable to both sides and to the text itself. This has been the truth through the ages and is a truth today. If the words can be misinterpreted then they will be misinterpreted, if the words are ambiguous or lead to conflicting conclusions then they will be misinterpreted. The fault is not just in the misinterpretation but also in the composition.
(I suspect you're not going to understand why I showed that)
I like Gervais, but if he is quoting from the Ubermensch, then he himself has misinterpreted it I believe. Of course the works of someone like Nietzsche can't be taken as absolute in anything however... A writer can't be held responsible for misinterpretation. Often in writing, Nietzsche especially (same with Blake I find), once you diminish its subtlety to crude and blunt, black and white information, you lose its beauty. It is not up to the author to be held responsible for the level in which something is misinterpreted, otherwise the deeper works of said artists would have turned out very dull and soulless indeed. Might I bring up INTENTION too? I'm pretty sure that Nietzsche didn't intend for his works to be used to justify genocide, and thus can't be held responsible if it is. A lot of great artists can be used to justify a lot of things (once again I mention Blake, Marx too), but the artist can't be held responsible if the consumer simply doesn't "get it".
As far as I'm aware, Hitler showed psychopath traits before he read Nietzsche, whether it be due to his mother dying when he was young, his Catholic upbringing or whole multitude of other things.
The Pessimist wrote:
"Philosophy has failed to make life more understandable." Well this I just outright disagree with. It has enlightened countless people through the ages. It may have failed to make life less understandable for you, but that doesn't mean it has failed completely. For some people, like myself, it opens doors.
Show me one example of Philosophy making life more understandable. Nothing spectacular, just a simple example.
Knowledge of Philosophy is proven to aid critical thinking and enables people who study it to be able to answer difficult questions in a comprehensive and clear manner. To name just one.
The Pessimist wrote:
The purpose of Philosophy isn't to prove, solve or answer. Not everything has to have that as its main purpose. Music does neither of those things either as it is totally ambiguous. That doesn't mean it is useless however: it enriches our lives! Philosophy does the same.
If like music, Philosophy is just an entertainment and a diverting pastime then that's just fine by me. Astrology also is just an entertaining and diverting pastime, I think it is hokum and mostly harmless, whereas Philosophy is hokum and considerably less harmless. Nations do not go to war because they like different music or are of opposing star signs, but give a man a Philosophy...
Philosophy and religion are two very different things, if that is what you are getting at. People arrive at a religion through philosophy, but philosophies are open ended and cannot be blamed.
The Pessimist wrote:
It gives us the facility to doubt EVERYTHING, which is a valuable human trait amongst the enlightened. As far as I'm aware, in the words of Richard Feynman, doubt is essential to science. Whilst I'm not saying that the facility to doubt was put there by formal Philosophy, doubting IS a philosophical process.
"amongst the enlightened"?!?! Is this available to all übermensch? Oh, please...
Okay that was sh*tty of me. I must have slipped...
Philosophy does not give us doubt. Doubt is another natural survival trait that every human posses from a very early age - that need to question everything, to take nothing for granted, to never to assume - Early education attempts to drum that out of us - learn by rote, believe what you are told, don't question your elders. Doubting is a philosophical process but it is not the sole property (or invention) of Philosophy. Which is exactly what I said. Care to present the dichotomy between Philosophy and philosophical processes? I'm unaware of it, forgive my ignorance.
The Pessimist wrote:
DvsFW may be daft to you, but many people including myself find it very interesting and relevant.
So? Doesn't mean that it is though does it.
And because you don't doesn't mean that it isn't. As you said before, there are no absolutes, although I feel by saying that I've opened the old "subjectivity" can meaning this discussion will probably end soon...
Edited by The Pessimist - January 16 2014 at 20:06
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
Posted: January 16 2014 at 18:33
*sigh* this seems like an awful lot of hard work to justify feeling good about having a less varied and less interesting diet.
The Pessimist wrote:
They are not pointless, as your answer to this would explain whether you really do think there is a universal morality or not. They may never happen, but that doesn't mean that these questions shouldn't be answered. Not everything has to be strictly pragmatic, although I think that's probably where the roots of your disdain for philosophy come from: its lack of pragmatism.
You want to use the question to determine which kind of "philosophical" person I am, well, I'm the kind that doesn't answer the question.
My answer would not explain anything, and certainly not whether I really do think there is a universal morality. Trying to fathom what I believe based upon my answer is silly - just ask me the direct question. Lack of pragmatism is not a problem, many things in this world lack pragmatism. Is there a universal morality? - no, of course not, that's absurd - there is however, a universal susceptibility (or capability) for morality - whatever that mechanism is it is natural and inherent - call it conscience, empathy, self-preservation, survival instinct, nurture, parent-instinct, selfishness, altruism, herd-instinct, pack-behaviour - whatever, and since nature abhors a vacuum, if the capability is there then a morality will occupy the space. So that is the basis for all morality, it's always been there and it's constant - but it is not a universal morality. We are a social-animal - we need to live in a social group in order to survive. In nature these come in two main flavours - herd and pack: a herd animal is self-sufficient in the food it eats (vegetation) but congregate in large numbers for mutual protection, no animal in the herd is dependant on any other; a pack animal is not self-sufficient in the food it eats (meat or meat and vegetation), it needs other members of the pack to help it gather food and so each animal in the pack dependant on the other members. We fit into the "pack" category, this makes us protective of other animals in the pack because we depend on them to survive. That fundamental basic instinct is the corner-stone of all morality. Your 1 vs 1000 thought experiment is a test of that basic instinct - do we allow one to die so the pack or tribe survives (thus aiding our survival) or do we let the 1000 perish to save the one... well, it depends on the "one" really doesn't it, but since we are denied the necessary information to make an informed decision the answer lacks meaning - pragmatic or otherwise - flipping a coin or rolling a dice is equally as valid in such a bound-limited thought experiment.
The Pessimist wrote:
And that question is a very childish one, and doesn't really mock Philosophy at all. How much Philosophy have you actually delved into just out of curiosity? I mean after all, Aristotle arguably created logic. Pythagoras was a philosopher. Nietzsche was an important political writer who's works came out of Philosophy. Marx's Philosophical writings Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto are two of the most influential books in European politics, whether it was misinterpreted or not. You can't argue that it's all disposable codswallop when it's all had such a profound influence on every single walk of life.
Sorry, which question? The flower colour one? That wasn't to mock Philosophy nor is it childish, it was a valid and somewhat typical example of a scientific question - all scientific enquiry starts with that seemingly simple question: 'Why does 'X' have/do/make/cause "Y"?' - you said Philosophy brings up a problem and contemplates it, I merely illustrated that with an example of scientific enquiry that philosophical contemplation would get no further than posing the initial question. The apparently childish "Why does a Flower have colour?" reveals a mass of scientific data from physics, chemistry, biology, physiology, psychology and probably a few others I've not thought of - it is not a simple question.
However, Philosophy does not ask those questions, (well not since the Renaissance anyway) - scientist do not go running to the Philosophy department for the next big puzzle to solve. And in my opinion, Philosophy stopped being relevant when it stopped asking those kinds of questions.
I have read enough of Philosophy to sit here arguing with you, Aristotle gets a free pass because he was the first true scientist, (his list of achievements are more than just formal logic) but with many of those ancient Greek philosophers, as I have said before, some of them were more than just "Philosophers" in the modern sense, there was no separation of science, art and contemplating your navel, so Aristotle, Pythagoras and later, Archimedes, were as much Scientists as they were Philosophers. Socrates and Plato on the other hand are said to have been less interest in the physical and natural aspects of the world - whether that is true or not we cannot say because we can only judge them on what they left behind, we do know they did contemplate music and light but not in the same physical way that Pythagoras and Aristotle did, they were more interested in the effects of music than the mechanics of it. This interests me en passantbecause I am interested in science - I would equally cite Galileo and Newton as Philosopher/Scientists of interest for their scientific studies and discoveries, not for their philosophical output. Nietzsche, Kant, Wittgenstein and all those dudes do not interest me, I know enough to know they do not tempt me to look further. Is/was their influence profound? Sure. Should it have been? Probably not. Marx is slightly different because I am a socialist, but let's be honest here - socialism has failed as a political movement, just as every extreme politics will ultimately fail - the concept is noble and sound, but in practice it is untenable in this or any other world - as is any other philosophy. (and probably universal suffrage is the only true success of socialism, though I think Marx believed that socialism would be a consequence of universal suffrage).
The Pessimist wrote:
The Philosophy of Science is a cornerstone of science, even though its foundation is circular logic and thus proves science not actually a complete answer at all (but the best we have so far).
Or philosophy of science is the somewhat redundant means of examining what science does from a philosophical viewpoint (this circular logic thing is a gas isn't it). It does not prove that science is not a complete answer at all, it struggles to prove its own worth by making such a claim. Science is well aware that it is not a complete answer - science does not deal in absolutes.
The Pessimist wrote:
How the text is interpreted is not up to the author. Least of all can a misinterpretation be blamed on the subject of the text itself. The fault is entirely down to the person doing the misinterpreting.
You do seem to be preoccupied with absolutes. The author is not to blame? Blame is applicable to both sides and to the text itself. This has been the truth through the ages and is a truth today. If the words can be misinterpreted then they will be misinterpreted, if the words are ambiguous or lead to conflicting conclusions then they will be misinterpreted. The fault is not just in the misinterpretation but also in the composition.
(I suspect you're not going to understand why I showed that)
The Pessimist wrote:
"Philosophy has failed to make life more understandable." Well this I just outright disagree with. It has enlightened countless people through the ages. It may have failed to make life less understandable for you, but that doesn't mean it has failed completely. For some people, like myself, it opens doors.
Show me one example of Philosophy making life more understandable. Nothing spectacular, just a simple example.
The Pessimist wrote:
The purpose of Philosophy isn't to prove, solve or answer. Not everything has to have that as its main purpose. Music does neither of those things either as it is totally ambiguous. That doesn't mean it is useless however: it enriches our lives! Philosophy does the same.
If like music, Philosophy is just an entertainment and a diverting pastime then that's just fine by me. Astrology also is just an entertaining and diverting pastime, I think it is hokum and mostly harmless, whereas Philosophy is hokum and considerably less harmless. Nations do not go to war because they like different music or are of opposing star signs, but give a man a Philosophy...
The Pessimist wrote:
It gives us the facility to doubt EVERYTHING, which is a valuable human trait amongst the enlightened. As far as I'm aware, in the words of Richard Feynman, doubt is essential to science. Whilst I'm not saying that the facility to doubt was put there by formal Philosophy, doubting IS a philosophical process.
"amongst the enlightened"?!?! Is this available to all übermensch? Oh, please...
Philosophy does not give us doubt. Doubt is another natural survival trait that every human posses from a very early age - that need to question everything, to take nothing for granted, to never to assume - Early education attempts to drum that out of us - learn by rote, believe what you are told, don't question your elders. Doubting is a philosophical process but it is not the sole property (or invention) of Philosophy.
The Pessimist wrote:
DvsFW may be daft to you, but many people including myself find it very interesting and relevant.
Joined: June 13 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3834
Posted: January 16 2014 at 07:42
Dean wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
I'm interested in how you see the killing of one man to save a thousand, or the killing of a man to save a child etc etc etc I'm sure these scenarios bore you rotten (they do for me) but I think it'll be a valid stepping stone in this argument.
Gah! These stupid thought experiments do not bore me, they are pointless - they sound clever and "intellectual" but they're stupid, futile and completely useless.
The Pessimist wrote:
Philosophy brings up a problem and contemplates it, science is the tool used to answer it. Philosophy doesn't provide answers by nature, but it is the heart of the rational process in which answers are created. Through philosophy we have also come to understand that in the science world no-one is proving anything right, rather coming up with the best answer so far. That is a philosophical system. Sorry, I know you didn't want an answer but your question really surprised me so I had to.
"Why does a flower have colour?" may be a philosophical question (with a small "p") but it is not a question posed by Philosophy (with a big "P") - any philosopher contemplating the colour of a flower would never arrive at the correct answer. In theoretical science Philosophy is not coming up with any "best answers" the scientists are - it may be a philosophical system but it is not Philosophy.
The Pessimist wrote:
If you are saying that the philosophy of Marx is a bad thing purely based on the people who have read it then I really implore you to read his Manifesto... Also, Hitler and Stalin may have read Marx's work, but neither of them were actually Marxists. They both followed their own nutty systems. It's also debatable whether either of them were communist.Marx himself often criticised Stalin's "communism", claiming that for Stalin to actually be Marxist then he would have disintegrated the bourgeoise, which he didn't.
...and if we could have done that before Hitler and Stalin had swallowed their bs and distorted it to their own ends then all the better. All formal philosophies get distorted and twisted, they all go titsup.
The Pessimist wrote:
I think saying it is useless is a fair statement, but then again so are most things really if you look at them from a survival aspect. Philosophy is just a way on contemplating how to make life more understandable. Democracy comes from philosophical reasoning. So do morals. Determinism/Freewill are philosophical standpoints. Every debate that has ever been had ever is a result of a philosophical knot. If debates, and hence dialectics, were ruled by science, they wouldn't even exist. The fact that scientists by practise can't take anything as 100% fact is a philosophical decision. Philosophy may be useless at the academic level that you speak of, but it is an inescapable part of life's fabric.
Philosophy has failed to make life more understandable. You cannot claim that morals come from philosophical reasoning when I am arguing that they are an inherent trait of human beings and ethical philosophy comes from those traits. Determinism vs Freewill is the daftest waste of time ever contemplated that, again, produces nothing, answers nothing, solves nothing. Discussion is not Philosophy (with a big "P"). A philosophical decision made by scientists is made by scientists, not Philosophers.
The Pessimist wrote:
Once again I'll repeat that philosophy is an integral part of all subjects.
Being an integral part of all subjects is not the Philosophy (with a big "P") I stand in opposition to.
They are not pointless, as your answer to this would explain whether you really do think there is a universal morality or not. They may never happen, but that doesn't mean that these questions shouldn't be answered. Not everything has to be strictly pragmatic, although I think that's probably where the roots of your disdain for philosophy come from: its lack of pragmatism.
And that question is a very childish one, and doesn't really mock Philosophy at all. How much Philosophy have you actually delved into just out of curiosity? I mean after all, Aristotle arguably created logic. Pythagoras was a philosopher. Nietzsche was an important political writer who's works came out of Philosophy. Marx's Philosophical writings Das Capital and the Communist Manifesto are two of the most influential books in European politics, whether it was misinterpreted or not. You can't argue that it's all disposable codswallop when it's all had such a profound influence on every single walk of life.
The Philosophy of Science is a cornerstone of science, even though its foundation is circular logic and thus proves science not actually a complete answer at all (but the best we have so far).
How the text is interpreted is not up to the author. Least of all can a misinterpretation be blamed on the subject of the text itself. The fault is entirely down to the person doing the misinterpreting.
"Philosophy has failed to make life more understandable." Well this I just outright disagree with. It has enlightened countless people through the ages. It may have failed to make life less understandable for you, but that doesn't mean it has failed completely. For some people, like myself, it opens doors. The purpose of Philosophy isn't to prove, solve or answer. Not everything has to have that as its main purpose. Music does neither of those things either as it is totally ambiguous. That doesn't mean it is useless however: it enriches our lives! Philosophy does the same. It gives us the facility to doubt EVERYTHING, which is a valuable human trait amongst the enlightened. As far as I'm aware, in the words of Richard Feynman, doubt is essential to science. Whilst I'm not saying that the facility to doubt was put there by formal Philosophy, doubting IS a philosophical process.
DvsFW may be daft to you, but many people including myself find it very interesting and relevant.
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Posted: January 15 2014 at 09:38
The trope: "Chicken: what everything exotic or visually off-putting invariably tastes like, only cheaper" seems to apply to faux meats as well. If only a carrot tasted like chicken...
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Posted: January 13 2014 at 01:33
The Pessimist wrote:
I'm interested in how you see the killing of one man to save a thousand, or the killing of a man to save a child etc etc etc I'm sure these scenarios bore you rotten (they do for me) but I think it'll be a valid stepping stone in this argument.
Gah! These stupid thought experiments do not bore me, they are pointless - they sound clever and "intellectual" but they're stupid, futile and completely useless.
The Pessimist wrote:
Philosophy brings up a problem and contemplates it, science is the tool used to answer it. Philosophy doesn't provide answers by nature, but it is the heart of the rational process in which answers are created. Through philosophy we have also come to understand that in the science world no-one is proving anything right, rather coming up with the best answer so far. That is a philosophical system. Sorry, I know you didn't want an answer but your question really surprised me so I had to.
"Why does a flower have colour?" may be a philosophical question (with a small "p") but it is not a question posed by Philosophy (with a big "P") - any philosopher contemplating the colour of a flower would never arrive at the correct answer. In theoretical science Philosophy is not coming up with any "best answers" the scientists are - it may be a philosophical system but it is not Philosophy.
The Pessimist wrote:
If you are saying that the philosophy of Marx is a bad thing purely based on the people who have read it then I really implore you to read his Manifesto... Also, Hitler and Stalin may have read Marx's work, but neither of them were actually Marxists. They both followed their own nutty systems. It's also debatable whether either of them were communist.Marx himself often criticised Stalin's "communism", claiming that for Stalin to actually be Marxist then he would have disintegrated the bourgeoise, which he didn't.
...and if we could have done that before Hitler and Stalin had swallowed their bs and distorted it to their own ends then all the better. All formal philosophies get distorted and twisted, they all go titsup.
The Pessimist wrote:
I think saying it is useless is a fair statement, but then again so are most things really if you look at them from a survival aspect. Philosophy is just a way on contemplating how to make life more understandable. Democracy comes from philosophical reasoning. So do morals. Determinism/Freewill are philosophical standpoints. Every debate that has ever been had ever is a result of a philosophical knot. If debates, and hence dialectics, were ruled by science, they wouldn't even exist. The fact that scientists by practise can't take anything as 100% fact is a philosophical decision. Philosophy may be useless at the academic level that you speak of, but it is an inescapable part of life's fabric.
Philosophy has failed to make life more understandable. You cannot claim that morals come from philosophical reasoning when I am arguing that they are an inherent trait of human beings and ethical philosophy comes from those traits. Determinism vs Freewill is the daftest waste of time ever contemplated that, again, produces nothing, answers nothing, solves nothing. Discussion is not Philosophy (with a big "P"). A philosophical decision made by scientists is made by scientists, not Philosophers.
The Pessimist wrote:
Once again I'll repeat that philosophy is an integral part of all subjects.
Being an integral part of all subjects is not the Philosophy (with a big "P") I stand in opposition to.
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Posted: January 12 2014 at 23:57
I'm a dog! Of course i eat meat. I also eat anything that falls off the kitchen table and the occasional poop on the street during my walks. Yum!
Seriously! I used to be the biggest carnivore on the planet being raised in the US state of Nebraska being one of the biggest beef producers in the country. I even had the exhilarating pleasure of working in a slaughterhouse on the kill floor. Ever wonder what a gelatinous carpet of coagulated blood looks and feels like while you're walking through it?
After many years of playing with my diet and as a college student of biology and ecological sciences i have been searching for the right balance regarding this question for a long time. I have found several things to be true.
1. I believe the human body requires small amounts of animal proteins and enzymes for optimal health. This doesn't always have to come from eating an animal itself but through non-pasteurized dairy and egg products. I have noticed that every vegan i have known is always extremely lethargic and has trouble with clear cognitive functions. I'm not saying it's not possible to be a healthy vegan just very difficult to ensure the proper substances that a body requires.\
2. I have been become mostly vegetarian over time simply because i have lost my taste for most meat. I now only ever eat small amounts of fish occasionally or other bottom dwellers of the sea such as crab, lobster or shell fish. My larger concern is the sustainability issue which dictates which species i consume when i do. I favor wild Alaskan salmon since it is one of the most sustainable sources of animal protein we can get on the west coast of the USA and i also never tire of it. I no longer eat mammals and do eat birds but only when i'm a guest at someone's house and rarely do so at that since everyone i know is aware of my preferences.
3. Sustainability leads to yet another issue usually ignored by vegans and vegetarians who think they are saving the planet by not consuming meat. It is a fact that in order to grow enough vegetation that we devour on a daily basis that habitat is cleared for soy plantations, cornfields, strawberry patches etc. The amount of deforestation that occurs every day is still rising so we can feed the population of the planet that grows by about a million people every few days. When we clear habitat where animals live, those animals die and some species even go extinct. I think it would make much more sense to eat animals that are wild and live in their natural habitat if we cull them in a sustainable way. Here in California it seems to me that people should be eating more deer since there is an abundance. I do not eat deer but it makes more sense to me than eating tofu (which i also don't eat) since deer do not require a lot of resources. On the other hand there are many feral pigs that are devastating the delicate ecology of our wildlands here and all over the world including on fragile ecosystems on island habitats such as Hawaii. By all means i'm all for the consumption of those invasive species that are wreaking havoc on the balance of the whole.
I think it should be about the perspective of the big picture. We should ascertain the situation at hand and act accordingly. In that way some of the Asian countries have been doing for centuries. There is also the possibiltiy of one of the most readily available forms of animal protein on the entire planet and that is one of consuming insects. This has saved millions in Africa during the centuries through dry spells and instabilities in political structures. It is actually catching on across the world as something more hip as i've seen cooking shows catering to adventurous eaters who are willing to sautee grasshoppers and the like in garlic and have a go at it.
Yadda yadda yadda. Just my two cents worth. Great topic :)
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Posted: January 12 2014 at 20:19
Dean wrote:
The Pessimist wrote:
To answer both your first two paragraphs, this is turning into a classic Moral Relativism vs Moral Absolutism. Do we really need to continue? I'm completely a relativist as I think it's quite dangerous and unreliable to say that morality is an unmovable thing, yet you seem to be absolutist for your own reasons. Correct me if I'm not mistaken? This argument is one of the oldest in the book.
Am I? Frankly I neither know nor care, sorry if that sounds belittling - it is not, it is merely a reflection of how low my opinion of formal philosophy is. I never said morality is unmovable, I do not say it is absolute - murder is wrong n'est pas? How about war and capital punishment? Are they sanctioned murder that is morally acceptable? I say a life is a life regardless of how it is taken so if it is intentional then it is murder. Period. No ifs, no buts. Yet (as I understand it) that is still not moral absolutism; conversely the evolution of morality (as a function of intelligence and civilisation) as you paint it is not moral relativism either as that would imply that there existed a time when murder (as we define it today) was morally acceptable ("Hey, Ug - you killed my Pa! I love you man"). I say morality existed in human species before we had a formal system for it - morality adapts to increasing knowledge, we do not invent new moralities to accommodate this improved view of the world. If that has a fancy name then so be it.
I'm interested in how you see the killing of one man to save a thousand, or the killing of a man to save a child etc etc etc I'm sure these scenarios bore you rotten (they do for me) but I think it'll be a valid stepping stone in this argument.
The Pessimist wrote:
And I really thought as a scientist you would appreciate the importance of philosophy as science can't function without it. Would you dismiss the great philosophers like Nietzsche, Plato and Marx as pseudoscientists? At least we agree that astrology and alchemy are fantasy.
How does science fail to function without philosophy? [please don't answer that here - I've gone into this countless times in several threads here over the past 6½ years - it is a question to think about, not to answer... how "philosophical" is that ]
Philosophy brings up a problem and contemplates it, science is the tool used to answer it. Philosophy doesn't provide answers by nature, but it is the heart of the rational process in which answers are created. Through philosophy we have also come to understand that in the science world no-one is proving anything right, rather coming up with the best answer so far. That is a philosophical system. Sorry, I know you didn't want an answer but your question really surprised me so I had to.
I would dismiss all three of them in a heatbeat, and if we could have done that before Hitler and Stalin had swallowed their bs and distorted it to their own ends then all the better. {Plato doesn't get a free pass for failing to inspire a despot, he simply didn't produce anything of any value}
If you are saying that the philosophy of Marx is a bad thing purely based on the people who have read it then I really implore you to read his Manifesto... Also, Hitler and Stalin may have read Marx's work, but neither of them were actually Marxists. They both followed their own nutty systems. It's also debatable whether either of them were communist.Marx himself often criticised Stalin's "communism", claiming that for Stalin to actually be Marxist then he would have disintegrated the bourgeoise, which he didn't.
Philosophy is not a pseudo-science - it is not a science, if it is pseudo anything it would be pseudo-intellectual - the art of pretending to be more clever than one really is. Really? Yup - take the above "Moral Relativism vs Moral Absolutism" ... and the answer is? ... there is no answer. Does it solve anything? ... No. Does it increase the sum of human knowledge? ... no. It sounds clever but it's babble and the only time you'll ever see it is on a Philosophy A-level exam paper (or in a interweb discussion forum).
I think saying it is useless is a fair statement, but then again so are most things really if you look at them from a survival aspect. Philosophy is just a way on contemplating how to make life more understandable. Democracy comes from philosophical reasoning. So do morals. Determinism/Freewill are philosophical standpoints. Every debate that has ever been had ever is a result of a philosophical knot. If debates, and hence dialectics, were ruled by science, they wouldn't even exist. The fact that scientists by practise can't take anything as 100% fact is a philosophical decision. Philosophy may be useless at the academic level that you speak of, but it is an inescapable part of life's fabric.
In classical Greece Philosophy was an umbrella term for all disciplines of wisdom, including physics, chemistry, biology, astronomy, music, poetry, drama, alchemy, astrology and thinking about the meaning of bellybutton fluff. Since then we have split out the physical sciences and called them science, we have split out the practical arts and called them the humanities, and what remained after slinging out the obvious charlatans alchemy and astrology has been called philosophy more or less by default.
Once again I'll repeat that philosophy is an integral part of all subjects.
The Pessimist wrote:
Regarding the last paragraph I apologise for my literal ignorance. However, I would say that being civilised (a la the second half of the definition) is an integral part of being moral, but I suppose that's just me hating rudeness and littering.
Ah no it isn't part of being moral nor is it a consequence, but I do know what you mean.
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Posted: January 17 2014 at 06:16
Meat eater, vegetarian or vegan?
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The Pessimist wrote:
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