FDR vs JFK

I am tired and I have to work tomorrow.  So I will say one thing and then ask a specific question.

Recessions and depressions happen.  They don't occur because of free markets.  They occur.

What is your opinion of this President?

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: Says the guy who was homeschooled  So what convinced you that FDR was such a terrible president? You must understand that I'm naturally rather wary of what in my experience is a fringe opinion.

Having known quite a few teachers and having been one, I think it is a mistake to assume they know more than the average person simply because they have been given that role (no offense, Rob)

There are many things. He made it illegal for private citizens to own gold. He put price caps on wages, which forced companies to offer perks(like health insurance) to compete for workers, which is part of why the health care market is so screwed up right now and why you lose your insurance when you quit your job.

He implemented many social welfare programs that I believe are bad for the economy, the culture and people's standards of living. He adopted economic policies that I believe extended the Great Depression.

Let me briefly explain the main problem with Keynesian economics.

GDP is defined as equal to consumption, plus investment, plus government spending, plus net exports.
GDP = C + I + G + NX

Looking at that equation, it is clear that increasing government spending will increase GDP, right? Only if we hold all the other variables constant. The economy is not a laboratory where you can control one variable at a time, though. If you raise G, the money has to come from somewhere. Where does it come from? It can come from three places.

1. The government can simply print money. This just causes prices to rise, however, so in real terms you have not increased GDP, plus you have inflicted the costs of inflation on the country, which is bad.

2. You can get the money from taxpayers. Well then, that is less money they have for consumption or investment, so those variables will go down and, at the very least, you'll get a smaller increase than you anticipated, and at worst administrative costs will actually cause a reduction in GDP.

3. You can borrow it by selling government bonds. But the people you sell the bonds to already think America is a good investment, or they wouldn't buy them. If there were no government bonds for sale, they would invest in something else, so in this case the rise in G is met by a fall in either NX or I.

These are the things they don't teach in college economics classes (unless I am teaching them.)


Edited by thellama73 - November 12 2012 at 21:17

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: thellama73 wrote: What a terrible place school is. Says the guy who was homeschooled  So what convinced you that FDR was such a terrible president? You must understand that I'm naturally rather wary of what in my experience is a fringe opinion.

Because mainstream opinions are so chic, right?

Look, save us time:

If we explain it to you, will you seriously consider what we tell you about FDR?  Or will you go "BAH.  Mrs. Merkelstein taught me different in civics!"

We promise to include sources.

HarbouringTheSoul wrote: I have never encountered a single person that didn't consider FDR to be a successful president besides this forum. I've even been taught about the success of the New Deal and Keynesian economics in school.

It's all that damned liberal indoctrination.  Every good conservative knows what a terrible president FDR was.  It's become part of the conservative dogma.  You can't worship Reagan, big business and the wealthy and hold FDR in high regard at the same time. 

I have never encountered a single person that didn't consider FDR to be a successful president besides this forum. I've even been taught about the success of the New Deal and Keynesian economics in school.

JJLehto wrote: Eh I really never bothered with all the "fun" stuff like sexual escapades. I much prefer the lame boring stuff like economic and foreign policy! Nah I really do think JFK would've become a great figure. He seemed to be turning into his own man and I DO think we would've seen the end of Vietnam.  With that, maybe a different tone with the Cold War. It's complete speculation his intent with the Fed..I've heard either it was his first step to end it or just a minor move but yeah he did attempt to make reform. I wish I was alive in the 60's, I really can see how his death could've felt like the death of hope :/ Sadly all we have is the great mystery of his death, a lot of what ifs...and his tax cut and Civil Rights Act.

My Dad told me the story of that day many times.  He was a truck driver, and was heading down University Ave in Saint Paul, a very busy street.  Looking out the window he noticed a disturbingly large number of people crying, some hugging each other.  He remembered one guy in particular being down on one knee at a bus stop, weeping inconsolably.  He had to stop briefly and ask what the hell was going on. 

He said everyone was completely glued to the television for days, with the news and funeral. 

and his great speeches

JJLehto wrote: As we know his pressuring of the mafia maybe was his downfall...

Maybe but unlikely.  Those closest to him - advisors, Secret Service, etc. - saw the worst of it--   the amphetamines, steroids, and god knows what else his doctors were giving him (partly for pain, partly to keep going);  the sexual deviance (which did evidently happen frequently and distastefully);  the youthful affair with a suspected East German spy.  Of course for all his flaws he gave back to the country just as much with bold moves to reform the Fed, peace with Russia, civil rights, and an increasing nonintervention policy in Southeast Asia.

We don't know who killed him and may never, but as history unravels, the Mob is becoming the least likely of suspects, IMO, despite any "deathbed confessions".



Edited by Atavachron - November 12 2012 at 20:30

Atavachron wrote: Considering JFK served less than four years and FDR twelve, it's not quite a fair comparison.   I like them both, very similar in many ways;  terrible health problems, wary of war, highly ambitious and forward thinking, put the people first, understood the fragility of life.

Well....as I said in my post, JFK seemed to be growing into all that.
To me he started off as, well not much of anything but a politician and rich kid...but the Cuban Missile Crisis seemed to spark a change (how could it not??) and he grew up and started saying f**k you to the militarists that held him. Also saying f**k you to his Daddy's people. As we know his pressuring of the mafia maybe was his downfall...

FDR did have a pretty populist streak, heh a rich man who seemed to hate his own kind and fight for the common man!?

The Doctor wrote: Sense of humor dude.  Check into it.  I was just screwing with you.

Anyway, I see FDR's dismissal of the Constitution as somewhat necessary for the time and would not see it as a mistake.