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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 18:18
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

And so it is Steve. Thumbs Up Thomas has now voted 'yes' too (I forgot to mention that he, as well as Diego, still had to cast their first votes when I bumped this thread yesterday).
 
Trevor Rabin is now therefore cleared for inclusion in Crossover.

GoodThumbs Up

Time now, then, to revisit Phil Collins on the basis of Face ValueEvil Smile

(Please, do not take it seriously, really, what a joke).


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Points: 1534 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 17:09
Originally posted by ghost_of_morphy ghost_of_morphy wrote:

Groups that have the most tenuous links to prog (Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, etc. etc.) are proudly listed here

'Sabatage' for me has always been a prog album, and there is a bunch of prog songs on their other LPs. So I wouldn't say that Black Sabbath are 'tenuously' related to prog.


Edited by ole-the-first - March 13 2014 at 17:09
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Points: 2755 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 16:16
Originally posted by lucas lucas wrote:

Originally posted by raeloneq raeloneq wrote:

Hello,

Just wondering if the site can add Trevor Rabin as an artist to the site. I know his early stuff is really pop, but his last album is a must for prog fans and deserves at least to be recognized.

Thanks
 
Asia is here, but they play AOR, just like Trevor Rabin.
 

It really isn't about what is prog or what is related to prog or what influenced prog.  Groups that have the most tenuous links to prog (Jefferson Airplane, Black Sabbath, Miles Davis, etc. etc.) are proudly listed here, while acts whose links to prog are multitudinous and well documented.are routinely rejected.  Boston is a good example here.

And it's always the same stupid excuse.  They play AOR.

As if AOR didn't partially evolve out of the prog scene.

You will notice that the same people never say "They play metal" or "They play jazz" or anything else.  It is pure snobbishness trying to pass itself off as sophistication.  Once you realize this, you realize that PA should not be used to define what is or what not is progresive rock.  At it's best. PA lists music that might appeal to some people who like some progressive rock and has definite biases for and against music that are not very logical.

Of course Trevor Rabin should be included as a prog related act. 
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 08:03
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:52
This is a good reason for quietly sweeping the term Art Rock under Greg Lakes very expensive Persian rug
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:44
I think people would understand (I've never been for underestimating people), but if we're gonna make Yes and Tull 'Progressive Artrock' then all bets are off, seems to me.   I mean the philosophic logistics boggle the mind.   But it is an interesting look at history.
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:34
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

But then wouldn't that make our use of 'Artrock' for a category that does not include Genesis, Floyd, Lennon (nor Bowie or Eno) be misleading and/or historically incorrect?

Without wishing to be overly pedantic, and in keeping with the spirit of this discussion, you could classify Genesis, Floyd, Yes, Le Orme, Tull, Uncle Tom Cobbly et al as Progressive Art Rock, to distinguish it from General Art rock, and, given that this is a Progressive Rock site, I would assume people would not be too misled when they discovered that Lennon was not included here as Art Rock artist. They would, I am sure, be able to appreciate that Lennon was many things, but prog he most certainly was not.
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:27
But then wouldn't that make our use of 'Artrock' for a category that does not include Genesis, Floyd, Lennon (nor Bowie or Eno) be misleading and/or historically incorrect?
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:20
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard.

Dean will answer this in finer detail I imagine, but generally in Europe and Britain Artrock refered somewhat specifically to those who included the Bowie-Eno-RM set, whereas in the US it was a much wider phrase that included pretty much any "arty" rock artist from Floyd to Kansas to Genesis to John Lennon.



Mmmmm. In Britain, Genesis, Floyd, and solo Lennon would certainly have come under the art rock banner, and, indeed, did. The Bowie, Eno, RM set you refer to would have been classified as either or both of glam rock or art rock. In other words, glam, like prog, was part of an art rock set clearly identifiable as such in this country. 

Therefore, to clarify earlier posts made, I would never classify Bowie or Roxy Music as progressive rock bands. Ditto Lennon. I would, though, class all as art rock. And, btw, that does not make them prog related, either.
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 07:10
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard.

Dean will answer this in finer detail I imagine, but generally in Europe and Britain Artrock refered somewhat specifically to those who included the Bowie-Eno-RM set, whereas in the US it was a much wider phrase that included pretty much any "arty" rock artist from Floyd to Kansas to Genesis to John Lennon.
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:57
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things.

But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people.   Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ?   And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.

True, but as we were fond of saying back in the day: not all Art Rock is prog,

As with David, I absolutely agree with this. I have never suggested that all art rock is prog. All prog, though, could be classified as art rock. The trick is, as ever, to identify what is prog, and what is not. Simples, eh?
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:56
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things.

But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people.   Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ?   And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.

Not unfair points, David.

For people under 30, I would tend to agree with you, although whether "Crossover" is any clearer is something I would take issue with.

Yes, all prog rock could fall under the banner of "art rock". Back in the seventies, people referred to the artists we have here under a multitude of sub genres as either progressive rock or art rock. That was it. It is us, and by that I mean prog rock fans rather than PA exclusively, who have sought to categorise further.

It would actually be nice to have a pleasant debate about all of this without it generating into the usual ding dong. For example, I am interested in what the difference between the American and European definition of art rock is. I was not aware that there was a huge difference, although I am extremely happy to be corrected in this regard.
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:52
Exactly, and therein lay the problem.
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Points: 37575 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:50
Originally posted by Atavachron Atavachron wrote:

Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things.

But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people.   Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ?   And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.

True, but as we were fond of saying back in the day: not all Art Rock is prog,
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:49
Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

And so it is Steve. Thumbs Up Thomas has now voted 'yes' too (I forgot to mention that he, as well as Diego, still had to cast their first votes when I bumped this thread yesterday).
 
Trevor Rabin is now therefore cleared for inclusion in Crossover.

GoodThumbs Up

Time now, then, to revisit Phil Collins on the basis of Face ValueEvil Smile

(Please, everyone, do not bother to respond. It is a joke).
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Points: 65670 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:48
Originally posted by lazland lazland wrote:

I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things.

But in our time, especially for people under 30 or so, 'Art Rock' is not necessarily any more clear than 'Crossover Prog', and though the term Art-Rock has been around a long time and was not our invention, it is a novel term to very many younger people.   Besides, isn't all prog "Artrock" ?   And then there's that annoying difference between the European definition of Artrock and the American one.
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Points: 7189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:42
And so it is Steve. Thumbs Up Thomas has now voted 'yes' too (I forgot to mention that he, as well as Diego, still had to cast their first votes when I bumped this thread yesterday).
 
Trevor Rabin is now therefore cleared for inclusion in Crossover.
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:34
Oh, by the way, Rabin should absolutely not be in prog related. His solo output has been of absolutely nil influence on anybody else at all, as far as I am aware.

His inclusion here should be solely on the basis of whether he has released a prog rock album, or not, simple as. My vote, if I had one, would be yes re Jacuranda. 
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Points: 13799 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 06:25
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Not that I care any more, this trend of Crossover being reduced to a pale shadow of Prog Related is far from good. Best of luck with that guys (he said despondently and not without a hint of bitter sarcasm)

 I sympathise with this. When I was a collab on the neo team and new suggestions, it was very much the case that Crossover was seen as a sort of "let's get them in here, because nobody else will have or take them" sub-genre, which I am fairly certain was not the intent when the sub genre was created.

My own preference, for which I have been slated, remains to go back to having a general Art Rock category, and not expanding the prog related at all except in a very few, very rare, instances. I am of the opinion that it is easier to say, Rabin is an Art Rock artist that Rabin might be a Crossover artist. In the latter, 99% of people here would not have a clue what that was defined as anyway. I know I would struggle, and that is the problem with all fabricated things.

I have, btw, listened to Rabin's latest. I was not impressed enough to buy it, although I did enjoy his contributions to Yes. My impression was that this would qualify as a piece of art rock. It was most certainly not a pop album.
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Points: 7189 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 13 2014 at 05:55
Originally posted by Chris S Chris S wrote:

Originally posted by yam yam yam yam wrote:

Well, there might well be a way to add Trevor Rabin to the site after all: http://progfreak.com/Trevor-Rabin-135138.html?path=pa/recent. If Diego votes 'yes' (he wasn't in the team when all the earlier 'Prog Related' votes were cast) then it's a done deal. Smile
 
A whole raft of artists for whom the original general consensus was 'Prog Related' have been reintroduced to the Crossover charts for a second bite. I guess this is due to the fact that the chances of any of them actually being seriously considered by admins for PR are somewhere just below zero...so the votes that were cast for that category are to all intents and purposes meaningless. Interesting times...! Tongue

Not sure I would have phrased it quite like that, unfair to Admin and perhaps a certain CZ a more appropriate placeConfused
 
It wasn't intended as a slur on our admins, who do a fantastic job. It was merely a reflection of the very strict set of criteria which the site requires to be satisfied before an artist can even be considered by them for Prog Related. This subject has been brought up in several other threads on here, and it has been well explained that we don't want the Prog Related category to expand so that it has even more artists in it than the 'real' prog subs do.
 
A fair number of suggestions that the Crossover team are presented with are kind of 'borderline cases', and team members often vote 'Prog Related' if they feel that is the most appropriate place for them to be filed. However, due to the strict entry criteria which rightly exist for PR, the need for an SC to step forward and put together a convincing case in support of the artist and present it to admins in the first place, etc etc, artists with a majority of votes cast for Prog Related tend to get shuffled off into the 'discuss' section on progfreak, where they just sit stagnating for months on end because there is little or no chance of them ever actually being considered for this category.
 
These artists have been brought back into the charts for another look in the hope that a definite 'yes' or 'no' decision can be reached rather than the current indefinite one for Prog Related, which would most likely never be resolved.
 
That is how I see it, anyway. Embarrassed
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