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dtguitarfan 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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 Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:17 |
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To further back up my point on Facebook likes and the places on the 2011 list, let's look at other Progressive Metal bands on the top 100 list:
Haken, 4th place (pretty darn good for a Progressive Metal act on this site):
http://www.facebook.com/HakenOfficial
5,062 likes - not that huge, but way more than Discipline
Myrath, 19th place:
http://www.facebook.com/myrathband
19,646 likes - that's WAY more than Discipline
Arch / Matheos, 20th place:
http://www.facebook.com/archmatheos
3, 739 likes
Nightwish (not my favorite band, mind you, and I don't even think they're that progressive, however...), 59th place:
http://www.facebook.com/nightwish
...HOLY....2.8 MILLION likes? How the heck is Discipline beating them out? Mind you, I don't think they deserve to be very high on a Progressive list of best albums, but still, if there was any reality to this list they'd have to be #1.
I'll stop there.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13799
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:16 |
 dtguitarfan wrote:
Dean,
I hear your arguments, and admit I had some misconceptions. However, hear me out here: think about your system.
1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more.
So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life. Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums. Then I didn't really start to post in this forum until later on. Only recently did I start to review albums, and since I have a job and a family (and a wife who rolls her eyes and says "you're on that stupid site AGAIN?!!" every time she see's me posting on here) I only bother to review the albums that I think deserve to have a voice, so basically, I'm not going to bother reviewing a mediocre or bad album unless their way up on the chart to begin with. And I would guess that's how most people out there are. Most people just don't have the time to write a review. So you're skewing the system to the people who have way to much time on their hands.
2) In order to become a collaborator, you have to review albums from many subgenres.
I would argue that this means the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre. Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with. And other sub-genres I just don't have any interest in - I've tried, but they just aren't for me. So I'm only going to be reviewing in a few certain sub-genres. And that means I'll probably never be a collaborator. But whatever, it's just a website.
3) The fact that you don't even know what a Facebook "like" is further proves my point that this site doesn't match reality. Ok, so bands create pages on Facebook (an IMMENSELY popular social networking site that reaches out to all ages and classes - my GRANDMOTHER is even on facebook. That's huge. My grandmother doesn't know how to plug a mouse into a computer. My Dad had to show her that one.). People "like" a band's Facebook page because they want to show other people that they like them, and also because they want to see the news related to this band. So it's a fairly good way to measure one band's popularity against another. Ok, so what's the number 1 spot for 2011? Discipline:
http://www.facebook.com/DisciplineBand
790 likes. That's meagre. Now, where's Dream Theater's latest album on this list? 18th place. Lets see how many likes they have:
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dream-Theater/7677942180
Wha? 2.5 MILLION?!!!!! And they are 18th place? How is this possible? Hmm...I'm going to say it's because people who like Progressive Metal find this site to be snobbish and pretentious.... 
Seriously, I say this not because it's just my opinion, but because I also hang out in a lot of Progressive Metal circles and I've told people about this site and encouraged them to try to make their voices heard, and that is the reaction I most often get from them - they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs. You don't like to hear that, and I get it. But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year? Not to say they are a bad band - they're great. But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up.
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Geoff. Before Dean responds, some misconceptions in your post.
I became a Prog Reviewer on the strength of my reviews (apparently  ). I have a wife, 10 year old son, and a full time job. I most certainly do not have too much time on my hands. Thankfully, my wife accepts that this site is my relaxation time, to unwind, listen to great music, and talk to others such as yourself about it.
Being taken on as a Collaborator has nothing to do with reviews. That is a Prog Reviewer. I am a collaborator because those who run this site asked me if I would be willing to contribute to the archival nature of the site as a member of the neo-prog team. I was, and remain so, happy to do this.
I am not allowed to be a Facebook member because of certain security issues at work. But even if I was, it would not change my opinion that even this is only a popularity contest, just as our lists are. It just happens to have more users than this site, which is, IMO, a good thing for us!
Yes, there are snobs in this community. Know what, though, there are also snobs of Facebook, just as there are a bunch of childish prats, well intentioned people, and d**kheads. That's human society, and one will never change that.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 13:06 |
Dean, I hear your arguments, and admit I had some misconceptions. However, hear me out here: think about your system. 1) you have to review albums to really have your vote count, and it has to be 100 words or more. So basically...you're rewarding the dudes who live in their mother's basements and have no life. Seriously, I have known about this website since the early 2000's, but never bothered to join until a little over a year ago, and then only to rate albums. Then I didn't really start to post in this forum until later on. Only recently did I start to review albums, and since I have a job and a family (and a wife who rolls her eyes and says "you're on that stupid site AGAIN?!!" every time she see's me posting on here) I only bother to review the albums that I think deserve to have a voice, so basically, I'm not going to bother reviewing a mediocre or bad album unless they're way up on the chart to begin with. And I would guess that's how most people out there are. Most people just don't have the time to write a review. So you're skewing the system to the people who have way to much time on their hands. 2) In order to become a collaborator, you have to review albums from many subgenres. I would argue that this means the only people you award "collaborator" status to are people who aren't really experts in any sub-genre. Because honestly, there are sub-genre's on this site that I would even argue shouldn't be on this site to begin with. And other sub-genres I just don't have any interest in - I've tried, but they just aren't for me. So I'm only going to be reviewing in a few certain sub-genres. And that means I'll probably never be a collaborator. But whatever, it's just a website. 3) The fact that you don't even know what a Facebook "like" is further proves my point that this site doesn't match reality. Ok, so bands create pages on Facebook (an IMMENSELY popular social networking site that reaches out to all ages and classes - my GRANDMOTHER is even on facebook. That's huge. My grandmother doesn't know how to plug a mouse into a computer. My Dad had to show her that one.). People "like" a band's Facebook page because they want to show other people that they like them, and also because they want to see the news related to this band. So it's a fairly good way to measure one band's popularity against another. Ok, so what's the number 1 spot for 2011? Discipline: http://www.facebook.com/DisciplineBand 790 likes. That's meagre. Now, where's Dream Theater's latest album on this list? 18th place. Lets see how many likes they have: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Dream-Theater/7677942180 Wha? 2.5 MILLION?!!!!! And they are 18th place? How is this possible? Hmm...I'm going to say it's because people who like Progressive Metal find this site to be snobbish and pretentious.... Seriously, I say this not because it's just my opinion, but because I also hang out in a lot of Progressive Metal circles and I've told people about this site and encouraged them to try to make their voices heard, and that is the reaction I most often get from them - they can't be bothered to get on this site because they feel that it's just a bunch of pretentious snobs. You don't like to hear that, and I get it. But do you honestly believe in the real world that Discipline deserves a higher spot on the top 100 list than any other album on that list for the year? Not to say they are a bad band - they're great. But there are MANY other releases for 2011 that deserve to be higher, and when you stack up the number of Facebook likes for these bands it just doesn't add up.
Edited by dtguitarfan - April 29 2012 at 13:22
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17330
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:53 |
@ Dean........all I can say is........  Great post. This is not an "exclusive club" as some have charged. If you show genuine interest in being a part of this community and follow up with some willingness to contribute, you can be involved. You can do whatever you like here. And the part about all of us having the same opinions......
Edited by Finnforest - April 29 2012 at 10:55
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 10:33 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Exactly - it's going to reflect what's popular. But I challenge you to go to the top 100 for each year, then start looking at how many Facebook "likes" each band in the top 100 has and I guarantee you, you will find the number of "likes" do not match up to what makes it to the top 100 on this page. |
I don't know what that means (seriously, I don't know how to look at Facebook "likes") - can you give specific examples, and once you've done that please demonstrate how Facebook "likes" reflect reality.
dtguitarfan wrote:
Why? |
I don't know but I've a feeling that's a rhetorical question.
dtguitarfan wrote:
Because this site has created a system where you give a whopping 20 points to someone who's won the favor of the other people who have 20 points. And how do you win the favor of someone who already has 20 points? By showing that you have the same opinions as them. |
That's a sad (and inaccurate) view of how this site works, but one I have heard before so I'll not dismiss it out of hand.
One point of clarification: We award a whopping 2 points to someone who's" won the favour" of the other people who have 2 points.
Another point of clarification: We award a doubling of points to those people who have already demonstrated they have repeatedly earnt 10 points for their reviews over people who only earn 1 point for their reviewless rating.
Another point of clarification: There is no favour system for awarding 10 points to those that review, it is not a merit system, it is automatic - if you take 10-30 minutes (or however long or short it takes) to write a 100+word review you automatically earn a 10 times weighting over those who take 5 seconds to click an Instant Rating bar.
Another point of clarification: Graduation onto the 2x point meritocracy is as close to automatic as it can get - we do not pick favourites or the likemined - write a number of quality reviews and you will be asked to join - rate 100s of albums without review and you will not be asked. If you write poor reviews like the ones highighted in this thread you will not be asked to join.
Another point of clarification: even if we did promote people who only rate without review it would be immaterial - If I rate an album without a review my rating earns 1 point whether I am an ordinary member, a Prog Reviewer, a Collaborator or an Admin - it's a flat system - no review=no weighting.
Another point of clarification: We do not promote people who share the same opinion as the rest of us - that is practically impossible anyway, however if this is true then it should not be too difficult to demonstrate, so please give examples.
dtguitarfan wrote:
I see what the goal is behind giving more points to someone who has been around longer, |
I don't, which is why we don't do it.
There are people who have been here since the sites inception who are only here for the craic and to be social, or to passively partake of what is on offer. They have no interest in reviewing or helping maintain the site - we do not promote these people to collaborator but we have tagged some of them as VIP in recognition of their valued contribution to the social aspects of the site - this is a valueless honorific but not a worthless one.
There are people here who were made Prog Reviewer within months of joining because they have produced a number of quality reviews.
There are people here who were made Collaborator within months of joining without having written dozens of reviews (such as myself) because they wanted to help manage and maintain the site and its associated database of albums and artists.
There are people here who were made Prog Reviewer years after of joining because they have produced a number of quality reviews in that longer time period.
There are people here who were made Collaborator years after of joining without having written dozens of reviews because after passively participating for a long period they decided they wanted to help manage and maintain the site and its associated database of albums and artists for whatever reason.
Seniority carries some weight around here, but not exclusively and not for the reason you are intimating. From experience I would say that seniority counts against you to some extent - it's easier to dismiss the opinions of an old fart.
dtguitarfan wrote:
[...]but I don't think it reflects reality, and the longer I have checked the top 100 lists, the more I have decided not to pay any attention to them because I know they don't actually reflect reality, |
I urge you not to pay any regard to the Top 100 lists, here or anywhere, because they are popularity contests and Prog Rock and Prog Metal has never been about popularity.
dtguitarfan wrote:
[...] but they reflect the opinions of a few VIP's on this site. |
No they don't, but please give examples.
dtguitarfan wrote:
You're turning people off - they don't WANT to bother participating in this site because they come and look at the top 100 and immediately know something is wrong because they know album A is more popular in reality than album B, and yet album B is 50 places higher on the list than album A.
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(!) How are you judging that album A is more popular than album B? ... (a rhetorical question)... by comparing it to other subjective charts or your own opinion.
If you want to change the system then join the system, if you feel the system does not reflect "reality" then join the system and add your view of reality to the statistics. No one wins a football match by shouting from the sidelines.
Edited by Dean - April 29 2012 at 10:50
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What?
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 09:20 |
Dean wrote:
dtguitarfan wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Here is an excerpt from the review in question:
I love they way that people at ProgArchives are so hesitant to give an album the full 5 star rating, the site itself even gives a type of warning when one wants to give the 5 star rating, could they be any more pretentious? |
Wow, so now it's pretentious to give careful thought to a Perfect Score. Incredible, it just shows we must be doing something right. What a hump.
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It is a horrible review, no doubt. But this site is pretentious. The system sets up for a top 100 list that isn't a reflection of reality, but is in fact a reflection of the favorites of a few VIP's. And most people just don't want to deal with the crap they have to go through to get to the point where their opinion counts for anything on this site.
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Quantify and qualify please. The Top 100 is collated from all reviews and ratings by all who review and rate including the review and rating of Mr RJN and your reviewless ratings, the only reason it is not a reflection of reality is because it (and all top 100 lists regardless of where they are or how they are collated, including RYM and Billboard) are popularity contests - album X is higher up the chart than album Y because it is more popular. Reviews reflect opinion and therefore some degree of reality but there is no viable system for collating review-based opinion. |
Exactly - it's going to reflect what's popular. But I challenge you to go to the top 100 for each year, then start looking at how many Facebook "likes" each band in the top 100 has and I guarantee you, you will find the number of "likes" do not match up to what makes it to the top 100 on this page. Why? Because this site has created a system where you give a whopping 20 points to someone who's won the favor of the other people who have 20 points. And how do you win the favor of someone who already has 20 points? By showing that you have the same opinions as them. I see what the goal is behind giving more points to someone who has been around longer, but I don't think it reflects reality, and the longer I have checked the top 100 lists, the more I have decided not to pay any attention to them because I know they don't actually reflect reality, but they reflect the opinions of a few VIP's on this site. You're turning people off - they don't WANT to bother participating in this site because they come and look at the top 100 and immediately know something is wrong because they know album A is more popular in reality than album B, and yet album B is 50 places higher on the list than album A.
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 08:06 |
dtguitarfan wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Here is an excerpt from the review in question:
I love they way that people at ProgArchives are so hesitant to give an album the full 5 star rating, the site itself even gives a type of warning when one wants to give the 5 star rating, could they be any more pretentious? |
Wow, so now it's pretentious to give careful thought to a Perfect Score. Incredible, it just shows we must be doing something right. What a hump.
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It is a horrible review, no doubt. But this site is pretentious. The system sets up for a top 100 list that isn't a reflection of reality, but is in fact a reflection of the favorites of a few VIP's. And most people just don't want to deal with the crap they have to go through to get to the point where their opinion counts for anything on this site.
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Quantify and qualify please. The Top 100 is collated from all reviews and ratings by all who review and rate including the review and rating of Mr RJN and your reviewless ratings, the only reason it is not a reflection of reality is because it (and all top 100 lists regardless of where they are or how they are collated, including RYM and Billboard) are popularity contests - album X is higher up the chart than album Y because it is more popular. Reviews reflect opinion and therefore some degree of reality but there is no viable system for collating review-based opinion.
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What?
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dtguitarfan
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 24 2011
Location: Chattanooga, TN
Status: Offline
Points: 1708
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 07:51 |
Atavachron wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
Here is an excerpt from the review in question:
I love they way that people at ProgArchives are so hesitant to give an album the full 5 star rating,
the site itself even gives a type of warning when one wants to give the 5 star rating, could they
be any more pretentious? |
Wow,
so now it's pretentious to give careful thought to a Perfect
Score. Incredible, it just shows we must be doing something
right. What a hump.
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It is a horrible review, no doubt. But this site is pretentious. The system sets up for a top 100 list that isn't a reflection of reality, but is in fact a reflection of the favorites of a few VIP's. And most people just don't want to deal with the crap they have to go through to get to the point where their opinion counts for anything on this site.
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The top 100 isn't a reflection of reality
