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The Dark Elf
Forum Senior Member
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Joined: February 01 2011
Location: Michigan
Status: Offline
Points: 13229
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 22:36 |
CCVP wrote:
Hmm, I guess a guerrilla military leader really gets elected because of being trustworthy and of principle, even if he attacked the enemy in the night of Christmas eve, a date that even WW1 respected and stopped the battles during it. |
Your distortions sound more like Anti-American bias rather than having any historical foundation whatsoever. George Washington was noted to be a very principled and trustworthy individual -- that he sought liberty from a repressive regime does not change his principles. Washington was also religiously tolerant, and like Jefferson was a Deist, not a Christian; therefore, the surprise attack on the Hessian contingent at Trenton was a masterful bit of strategy.
As far as WWI, you really have your facts skewed. The truces that occurred along the front during Christmas were not official but spontaneous among many dead tired and homesick soldiers on both sides. As the war progressed, these unofficial truces became more sporadic. The desolation of "no-man's land", and the abject futility of trench war in WWI were what drove these unofficial truces. In WWII, the Nazis thought nothing of conducting major attacks at Bastogne during Christmas. Prior to WWI, the lack of battles during the holiday season had less to do with religious commemoration than war being "out of season" during December. Major troop movements were literally impossible in the middle of winter, and any winter manuevers were considered dangerous (Napoleon's retreat from Moscow is a notable example).
Coming from Brazil, a country known for political instability, military dictatorships and the overthrow of democratically elected governments, you have some gall denigrating Washington who, after two terms as president, actually turned down another term in office, as he believed holding the office any further ran counter to the premise of a constitutional democracy. That's something Brazil didn't learn until 1994. But hey, it's always easier to criticize someone else than checking for skeletons in your own closet.
Edited by The Dark Elf - May 28 2011 at 22:37
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:55 |
CCVP wrote:
Hmm, I guess a guerrilla military leader really gets elected because of being trustworthy and of principle, even if he attacked the enemy in the night of Christmas eve, a date that even WW1 respected and stopped the battles during it.
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All's fair in love and war, sadly.
CCVP wrote:
And, oh yes, I forgot about rich.
then I guess the list will be much broader.
Both Bush(es), Jimmy Carter, Kennedy, FDR, Theodore Roosevelt and all the first 10 presidents.
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True, being rich can help you get elected. Campaigns are expensive. But there are many other qualities a presidential candidate must have in order to run a successful campaign, such as wide-ranging influence and a network of powerful friends. Obama got the unwavering support of Harry Reid and other congressional democrats early on in his campaign. Bush had his own long-standing political allies. In the end, its always about the votes and not the wealth or status. Sadly, in order for people to recognize a candidate there usually has to be a lot of money spent in this day and age.
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:30 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Evidence to what? That being famous helps you in being elected? You've got to be kidding.
Washington himself got elected due to his fame on revolutionary times. Ulysses Grant due to his fame as being a military leader. Same with Eisenhower.
I'm sure there are more cases, but those are the ones I can remember on the top of my head.
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So you're going to change what you said? You said people get elected because they are rich and famous. That's much different than saying that being famous helps you.
And lol @ your examples. You working with a very skewed definition of fame. Washington didn't get elected because of name recognition. He got elected for being known to be a good leader, trustworthy, and of principle.
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Hmm, I guess a guerrilla military leader really gets elected because of being trustworthy and of principle, even if he attacked the enemy in the night of Christmas eve, a date that even WW1 respected and stopped the battles during it. And, oh yes, I forgot about rich. then I guess the list will be much broader. Both Bush(es), Jimmy Carter, Kennedy, FDR, Theodore Roosevelt and all the first 10 presidents.
Edited by CCVP - May 28 2011 at 21:31
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 17309
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:29 |
Great exchange, guys, really interesting
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...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell"
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:24 |
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You told me you didn't want to hear my justification so I'm not sure I can answer that. Libertarians are as divided on abortion as the general population. The answer to the rest of those things is of course yes uniformly. |
I find that a fascinating anomaly (and thank you for the measured
response, it helps get past the crap)-- it indicates abortion is
an even deeper issue than I'd thought, and transcends even someone's
core political beliefs. Do you think religion plays a part in
that discrepancy?
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No doubt it does. I think it not as much as people would think. I read a lot of literature on it. People mean things different than what they write, but certainly the arguments aren't referencing holy works or anything like that.
Alright nice active discussion guys. Phillies game is over so I'm going for a run, showering, and getting ready for work in the morning.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - May 28 2011 at 21:27
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
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Points: 65616
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:21 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
You told me you didn't want to hear my justification so I'm not sure I can answer that. Libertarians are as divided on abortion as the general population. The answer to the rest of those things is of course yes uniformly. |
I find that a fascinating anomaly (and thank you for the measured
response, it helps get past the crap)-- it indicates abortion is
an even deeper issue than I'd thought, and transcends even someone's
core political beliefs. Do you think religion plays a part in
that discrepancy?
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:20 |
CCVP wrote:
Evidence to what? That being famous helps you in being elected? You've got to be kidding.
Washington himself got elected due to his fame on revolutionary times. Ulysses Grant due to his fame as being a military leader. Same with Eisenhower.
I'm sure there are more cases, but those are the ones I can remember on the top of my head.
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So you're going to change what you said? You said people get elected because they are rich and famous. That's much different than saying that being famous helps you.
And lol @ your examples. You working with a very skewed definition of fame. Washington didn't get elected because of name recognition. He got elected for being known to be a good leader, trustworthy, and of principle.
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - May 28 2011 at 21:21
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007
Location: Vitória, Brasil
Status: Offline
Points: 7971
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:18 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
CCVP wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
CCVP wrote:
I've always been allarmed how degraded the political scene in the US is since the 80's and how we are marching towards that disgrace here since the past 5 years or so. Not that things are perfect here, God no, but electing people just because they are famous or rich. . . .
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Yeah that hasn't happened here.
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The governator would like to differ.
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Someone being famous does not imply they were elected because they were famous. Jesse Ventura certainly wasn't elected because he pinned Hulk Hogan. |
using an exception as the rule really works when making a point . . .
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Ummmmm that's funny because it's exactly what you did. |
and how using the exception to the exception helps you in any way?
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I wasn't. I was providing a counterexample to the fact that being famous and being elected implies that you were elected because you were famous. Having produced this counterexample, the burden would now be on you to present further evidence even though if you were to prove this, it would mean little since you cited but one case. On the same page now? |
Evidence to what? That being famous helps you in being elected? You've got to be kidding. Washington himself got elected due to his fame on revolutionary times. Ulysses Grant due to his fame as being a military leader. Same with Eisenhower. I'm sure there are more cases, but those are the ones I can remember on the top of my head.
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:14 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Barking Weasel wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
yerp |
Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion?
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I'm against abortion still, but I feel bad about saying yes to both sides. It's one of those issues where I pretty much just don't know. |
I agree. Personally I'm against it, but I think it should be legal because I don't like the idea of forcing women to have unwanted children, especially as a result of coercion. As you mentioned before, there are more shades of gray to the issue itself. You, me, and every other male on this thread have the luxury of not ever having to go through with one, fortunately.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:13 |
Maybe we aren't mortal enemies after all?
Edited by Equality 7-2521 - May 28 2011 at 21:13
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:11 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Barking Weasel wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
yerp |
Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion?
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I'm against abortion still, but I feel bad about saying yes to both sides. It's one of those issues where I pretty much just don't know. |
Oh sh*t we agree on something else.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:11 |
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Well then, sir, I oppose him and that most significant social position utterly and completely, and if you take your principles of freedom to be literal, I would expect you would to. Is that fair to say? |
No I don't. If you could convince me otherwise I'd be happy to change my mind though. |
I thought it was self-expalnitory; a woman's right to a legal abortion is a freedom as any other. I take the Libertarian stance to support such freedoms. I do hope that's not incorrect, I mean to be in favor of allowing people to live as they please unless their State dictates otherwise doesn't sound like Liberty to me. More like Confedralism or something.
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You're making one of two arguments to take the libertarian position. Either the fetus has no rights or the fetus has aggressed upon the woman. Which is it? | Both, or I suppose for our purposes, the first. But I can see where this is going and I'm not interested in having a debate on abortion. My puzzlement is in why someone who believes in ultimate freedom would be so hesitant to support full abortion rights whether or not they find themselves sucked into a philo-scientific argument that, as past threads on the subject show, are mostly fruitless. |
Because I believe that a fetus has rights and that the second condition is by no means met. I won't proselytize since you don't want to hear it though. Suffice it to say that I believe my libertarian cred is safe. |
Alright, that's a reasonable thing to say, you feel how you feel and I've no ability or even desire to change it. But I really just cannot get past an individual with a belief that holds personal freedoms dear, but won't support and would indeed actively oppose the right of an adult woman to decide what she wants to do with her body. Do Libertarians believe in Right-to-Die? What about drug legalization? Gays in the military? I have to assume the answer must by definition be an unrequited Yes, including abortion rights. And if the answer is not Yes, then no one's "libertarian cred" is safe. How could it be?
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You told me you didn't want to hear my justification so I'm not sure I can answer that. Libertarians are as divided on abortion as the general population. The answer to the rest of those things is of course yes uniformly.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:09 |
Barking Weasel wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
yerp |
Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion?
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I'm against abortion still, but I feel bad about saying yes to both sides. It's one of those issues where I pretty much just don't know.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:09 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I wonder if it was a threat or a bribe. My gut tells me bribe. |
True, I naturally assumed threat but I suppose that could be as well.
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator
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Joined: September 30 2006
Location: Pearland
Status: Offline
Points: 65616
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:08 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Atavachron wrote:
Well then, sir, I oppose him and that most significant social position utterly and completely, and if you take your principles of freedom to be literal, I would expect you would to. Is that fair to say? |
No I don't. If you could convince me otherwise I'd be happy to change my mind though. |
I thought it was self-expalnitory; a woman's right to a legal abortion is a freedom as any other. I take the Libertarian stance to support such freedoms. I do hope that's not incorrect, I mean to be in favor of allowing people to live as they please unless their State dictates otherwise doesn't sound like Liberty to me. More like Confedralism or something.
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You're making one of two arguments to take the libertarian position. Either the fetus has no rights or the fetus has aggressed upon the woman. Which is it? | Both, or I suppose for our purposes, the first. But I can see where this is going and I'm not interested in having a debate on abortion. My puzzlement is in why someone who believes in ultimate freedom would be so hesitant to support full abortion rights whether or not they find themselves sucked into a philo-scientific argument that, as past threads on the subject show, are mostly fruitless. |
Because I believe that a fetus has rights and that the second condition is by no means met. I won't proselytize since you don't want to hear it though. Suffice it to say that I believe my libertarian cred is safe. |
Alright, that's a reasonable thing to say, you feel how you feel and I've no ability or even desire to change it. But I really just cannot get past an individual with a belief that holds personal freedoms dear, but won't support and would indeed actively oppose the right of an adult woman to decide what she wants to do with her body. Do Libertarians believe in Right-to-Die? What about drug legalization? Gays in the military? I have to assume the answer must by definition be an absolute Yes, including abortion rights. And if the answer is not Yes, then no one's "libertarian cred" is safe. How could it be?
Edited by Atavachron - May 28 2011 at 21:12
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:08 |
I wonder if it was a threat or a bribe. My gut tells me bribe.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:07 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I don't remember the exact detail. He wasn't going to vote for it because it didn't include a certain provision(single payer) he deemed necessary. He said he would not vote for it unless that was included time and time again. Obama took him for a ride on Air Force One. He then changed his mind saying that it was better than nothing so what the hell he'd vote for it. |
hmm....that is intriguing. Especially after meeting with Obama, have to wonder what he was threatened with? Which is what my gut says. Kind of like Chris Dodd who argued against a certain measure the SEC put forward, but then put that very thing in the Wall Street reform bill! Supposedly the pressure came from the White House. Obama is a little more moderate, and iron fisted than many expected!
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:06 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
yerp |
Perhaps another thread would suffice for this, but how do you feel about victims of rape/incest getting an abortion?
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Equality 7-2521
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Points: 15784
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:04 |
I don't remember the exact detail. He wasn't going to vote for it because it didn't include a certain provision(single payer) he deemed necessary. He said he would not vote for it unless that was included time and time again. Obama took him for a ride on Air Force One. He then changed his mind saying that it was better than nothing so what the hell he'd vote for it.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
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Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
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Posted: May 28 2011 at 21:01 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Barking Weasel wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I just came in here to say RON PAUL RON RAUL RON PAUL RON PAUL.
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A good man, but a weak presidential candidate like every other GOP'er. Nonetheless, he's the only honest Republican Politician out there.
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Fixed. Now that Russ Feingold has been given the boot I'd agree the Paul's are probably the only honest ones.
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Kucinich is pretty honest. Though he was very shady with the health care vote. |
Oh thank you! I forgot about him! Sad since he was one of my favorites as well.  I've only come from under my political rock recently, can you enlighten me? I'm not sure what you mean.
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