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Harold-The-Barrel 
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 Posted: April 01 2011 at 09:57 |
Hard to choose, Godbluff is probably more consistent, but i'm going with Nursery Cryme 
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You must be joking.....Take a running jump......
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 09:52 |
 bucka001 wrote:
This alone makes it better"
The 'this alone makes it better' part struck me the same way that the 'brainwashing' part did you, at least in terms of how off-the-mark it is. You still never mentioned what tune on Godbluff doesn't meet those requirements (complex, aggressive, etc). I guess I just feel like, while it's cool you don't like VdGG, that you don't really know the album we're talking about... but if I'm wrong, say so and I'll eat crow. I can say that I know both Nursery Cryme and Godbluff extremely well and have for decades.
The thing here is, I feel that some people will vote for Genesis or VdGG (or whoever in any of these polls) based on who their faves are, without knowing the other artists' work too well. |
Please Bucka001, you are new here (At least in posts), but if you spent more time in the forum, you would ALREADY KNOW I NEVER TALK ABOUT AN ALBUM I HAVEN'T HEARD OR NOT FAMILIAR WITH, so please, don't make those guesses again, because they are untrue.
I don't know how old are you or how long you listen Prog (not important either), but I'm on this for exactly 34 years, and in this time i heard all the most important classic Prog bands and in most of the cases and even when I don't like most of their music, have all their albums, because all of them have the touch of the genius, and I respect that.
No it doesn't, a brainwashed person doesn't take decisions for himself, but because he/she has been programmed to do so.
In my case I made an informed decision, for example, I'm listening "The Udercover Man", and even when it's elaborate and well crafted, there0's something missing IMO, that ingredient that separetes the good from the great, Yes is dramatic but I believe too derivative of Bowie) and I could give an opinion about each and every song, but I don't need to justify me.
I believe that The Musical Box is the best song ever released by a Progressive Rock band, and even when this is a subjective decision, I believe there are reasons that justify that opinion.
Iván
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bucka001
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Posted: April 01 2011 at 06:03 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
My problem is to be called brainwashed because we like one album more than other.
IMO Genesis reached their peak in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot,
It's a matter of taste.
Iván |
Who can find fault with this. I come to a different conclusion, but so what? And the term 'brainwashed' hardly applies here, I agree (of course, neither does the word 'enlightened' that someone else used a few posts ago when describing why some folks like Genesis over VdGG...)
But, Ivan, I thought it was equally ridiculous when you stated "The Musical Box guys!!!!!!!!
The song that epitomizes what Progressive Rock means (Complex. elaborate, interesting melody, aggressive, with radical changes and intelligent lyrics plus a good violent component).
This alone makes it better"
The 'this alone makes it better' part struck me the same way that the 'brainwashing' part did you, at least in terms of how off-the-mark it is. You still never mentioned what tune on Godbluff doesn't meet those requirements (complex, aggressive, etc). I guess I just feel like, while it's cool you don't like VdGG, that you don't really know the album we're talking about... but if I'm wrong, say so and I'll eat crow. I can say that I know both Nursery Cryme and Godbluff extremely well and have for decades.
The thing here is, I feel that some people will vote for Genesis or VdGG (or whoever in any of these polls) based on who their faves are, without knowing the other artists' work too well.
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jc
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 23:54 |
Logan wrote:
Godbluff has a higher average rating than Nusery Cryme, but is has fewer ratings and is less known. Poll results don't mean much. It's very common for people to vote in such polls who aren't really familiar with both choices. You'll get VdGG fanboys who vote VdGG irregardless of the album, and without really knowing the competition, and Genesis fanboys who do the same. There are rather more Genesis fanboys, but I won't draw conclusions based on that.when it comes to the poll results in this competition. I do hope that most who have voted for either album have at least really listened to both albums.
Maybe I shouldn't have voted because although I have heard Nursery Cryme considerable times (I used to be really big on Genesis), I haven't listened to it in full in years; whereas, Godbluff, which I voted for, is fresher in my memory.
Sometimes I choose to listen to both albums again before voting in polls -- especially when my memories are rather hazy, and noting that my musical interests do change over time.
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My problem is to be called brainwashed because we like one album more than other.
IMO Genesis reached their peak in Nursery Cryme and Foxtrot, both two sides of the same coin, and even when SEBTP and The Lamb are masterpieces, always believed that NC is slightly superior.
It's a matter of taste.
Iván
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Man With Hat
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:57 |
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NC is good, but Godbluff is better.
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Dig me...But don't...Bury me
I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive
Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect.
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:56 |
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably  |
Substitute "Pawn Hearts" for "Godbluff," and you may have a point. Otherwise, I'll choose early Genesis every time. I hardly think "brainwashed" is the appropriate term though. The word "enlightened" would be a better description.
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Logan
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 22:42 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Having an own and personal taste is not being brainwashed, brainwashed would be for example to think VDGG,King Crimson and Gentle Giant are the peak of Prog if I simply don't like most of their music.
I was a Genesis fan when not many liked them in comparison with Yes, Wakeman or ELP, Genesis really got the respect of the majority when Gabriel had already left the band, so being a Genesis fan is anything except being brainwashed.
And if you think Godbluff should be winning, learn to accept hat the majority doesn't agree with you. This doesn't mean one is better than the other, even when I believe that in a site like Prog Archives, every Prog album and band got the respect they deserve.
Iván |
Godbluff has a higher average rating than Nusery Cryme, but is has fewer ratings and is less known. Poll results don't mean much. It's very common for people to vote in such polls who aren't really familiar with both choices. You'll get VdGG fanboys who vote VdGG irregardless of the album, and without really knowing the competition, and Genesis fanboys who do the same. There are rather more Genesis fanboys, but I won't draw conclusions based on that.when it comes to the poll results in this competition. I do hope that most who have voted for either album have at least really listened to both albums. Maybe I shouldn't have voted because although I have heard Nursery Cryme considerable times (I used to be really big on Genesis), I haven't listened to it in full in years; whereas, Godbluff, which I voted for, is fresher in my memory. Sometimes I choose to listen to both albums again before voting in polls -- especially when my memories are rather hazy, and noting that my musical interests do change over time.
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 21:16 |
dr prog wrote:
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably |
Having an own and personal taste is not being brainwashed, brainwashed would be for example to think VDGG,King Crimson and Gentle Giant are the peak of Prog if I simply don't like most of their music.
I was a Genesis fan when not many liked them in comparison with Yes, Wakeman or ELP, Genesis really got the respect of the majority when Gabriel had already left the band, so being a Genesis fan is anything except being brainwashed.
And if you think Godbluff should be winning, learn to accept hat the majority doesn't agree with you. This doesn't mean one is better than the other, even when I believe that in a site like Prog Archives, every Prog album and band got the respect they deserve.
Iván
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dr prog
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:51 |
Only a brainwashed Genesis fan would rate Nursery higher than Godbluff. Godbluff should be winning this thread comfortably
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Zargus
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:31 |
moshkito wrote:
Negoba wrote:
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal. |
AND ... PG produced more than one piece for Peter Hammill, and I think that Peter is represented in one of those compilation albums on Peter Gabriel's label. And PG's words are very nice and complimentary.
I would think there was some influence here, and PG would have known about PH via the label and a few other things. Essentially, by the time that PG and Geneiss did their 2nd album, PH already had 4 or 5, and I am not sure that he was too hard to miss.
I don't think that we have to worry about who's on first, or second or third, but when it comes to individuality, because PH was probably at the forefront of the whole thing, but I am not sure that PH was concerned with the whole "competitive" nature of things, and he just stuck to his own insides and work and not worry about anyone else ... and I think this is really important these days to be able to be creative.
In general, and the same happened to Peter Gabriel, the more famous and known they became, the less creative and inventive they became ... and you can not sit here and say that about Peter Hammill. You have to be able to throw away the past and those ideas ... and PH did ... but I am not sure that Genesis or Peter Gabriel can think like that when it comes to their music, because of their "fame" ... and the fact that 10 thousand other people are also making money off them!
The one comparison that would be tough would be if you plugged up ... Godbluff against The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway ... because in essence ... you have the same parallel and study ... done left handed by one and right handed by the other! So to speak! I would still pick Peter Hammill though ... but Lamb is very special for me as well! |
Good post, you hit the nail on its head again! 
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moshkito
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 20:18 |
Negoba wrote:
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal. |
AND ... PG produced more than one piece for Peter Hammill, and I think that Peter is represented in one of those compilation albums on Peter Gabriel's label. And PG's words are very nice and complimentary.
I would think there was some influence here, and PG would have known about PH via the label and a few other things. Essentially, by the time that PG and Geneiss did their 2nd album, PH already had 4 or 5, and I am not sure that he was too hard to miss.
I don't think that we have to worry about who's on first, or second or third, but when it comes to individuality, because PH was probably at the forefront of the whole thing, but I am not sure that PH was concerned with the whole "competitive" nature of things, and he just stuck to his own insides and work and not worry about anyone else ... and I think this is really important these days to be able to be creative.
In general, and the same happened to Peter Gabriel, the more famous and known they became, the less creative and inventive they became ... and you can not sit here and say that about Peter Hammill. You have to be able to throw away the past and those ideas ... and PH did ... but I am not sure that Genesis or Peter Gabriel can think like that when it comes to their music, because of their "fame" ... and the fact that 10 thousand other people are also making money off them!
The one comparison that would be tough would be if you plugged up ... Godbluff against The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway ... because in essence ... you have the same parallel and study ... done left handed by one and right handed by the other! So to speak! I would still pick Peter Hammill though ... but Lamb is very special for me as well!
Edited by moshkito - March 31 2011 at 20:19
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Negoba
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 13:59 |
I thought it was pretty established that Peter Gabriel admired Hammill's work. When that started and how much influence there was I don't know, and whether there was anything reciprocal.
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You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all.
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bucka001
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 13:31 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
Sorry to say it...I don't like VDGG at all.
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Fair enough (you're certainly not alone there!). Then what tune(s) on Godbulff do you like least; what bugs you about that tune(s).
I ask because your description of Musical Box/Nursery Cryme (aggressive, intelligent lyrics, etc) is exactly what goes on w/Godbluff when I listen to it. Actually, Godbluff is more violent and aggressive (but that could be a turn off). That's a trait, I believe, that Genesis learned from VdGG.
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jc
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 12:19 |
bucka001 wrote:
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
(Complex. elaborate, interesting melody, aggressive, with radical changes and intelligent lyrics plus a good violent component).
Iván |
Sounds like you're describing the four tunes on Godbluff! I like Musical Box, Salmacis, and Hogweed just fine (a few of the others are filler on that album). Ivan, what tunes do you like from Godbluff and why wouldn't you think they fit the description you give above? |
Sorry to say it...I don't like VDGG at all.
But always believed that The Musical Box is the best song ever.
Iván
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bucka001
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 12:09 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
(Complex. elaborate, interesting melody, aggressive, with radical changes and intelligent lyrics plus a good violent component).
Iván |
Sounds like you're describing the four tunes on Godbluff! I like Musical Box, Salmacis, and Hogweed just fine (a few of the others are filler on that album). Ivan, what tunes do you like from Godbluff and why wouldn't you think they fit the description you give above?
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jc
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refugee
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 11:35 |
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^Can’t agree with you, Ivan. The Musical Box is fantastic, but so are all the four tracks on Godbluff.
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He say nothing is quite what it seems;
I say nothing is nothing
(Peter Hammill)
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 11:08 |
The Musical Box guys!!!!!!!!
The song that epitomizes what Progressive Rock means (Complex. elaborate, interesting melody, aggressive, with radical changes and intelligent lyrics plus a good violent component).
This alone makes it better, but if you add Fountain of Salmacis (At leas)...WOW.
Iván
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Libor10
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 05:17 |
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Well, I've goth both albums at home, like VDGG (and I'm looking forward to Saturday as I'm going to see them live in Prague), but it's fair to say I love Genesis (especially with Gabriel) and thus there isn't any contest here for me. If only for Musical Box I should vote for NC. On the other side, comparing these two record, the winner wins only by slight distance (Foxtrot and Selling England are in my Genesis top 2 :-)
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omri
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 03:14 |
I entered this thread just cause I were interested to see how large is the gap that Godbluf has on NC. It was a surprise to discover that NC leads. From reading the posts here it seems to me that some voters did not hear VDGG much. I knew for example that Ivan will choose NC cause he said many times that it is his favorite album (together with Foxtrot if I remember right) and I know he heared enogh of Godbluf but I feel some others here did not hear it (as somebody said he never got into VDGG) and I think it is wrong to vote in this situation.
I love NC (my favorite track is "The return of the giant hogweed" but all tracks are good IMO) and if more people prefer it it's fine with me but voting without knowing the other album make the poll useless.
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omri
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Posted: March 31 2011 at 00:45 |
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Easy..."Nursery Cryme" wins my vote. I think "Godbluff" is way overrated.
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Nursery Cryme VS Godbluff
