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harmonium.ro 
Special Collaborator
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Joined: August 18 2008
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 Posted: January 17 2011 at 13:08 |
 lazland wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
lazland wrote:
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
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The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
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I don't remember touching this issue, though, Steve, I only recall us not agreeing on how good the album is (it bored the hell out of you and you found it a step in the wrong direction if I'm not wrong).
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My short term memory is appalling Alex, but you are definitely correct in recalling the "boring" issue. My apologies if I have not remembered the "plagiarism" argument correctly. However, I stand by previous comments I have made regarding Wilson being lucky not to have the arse sued off of him.
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No need to apologize. To me, the "Time Flies" is a clear case of paying tribute in good faith, and therefore I'm not surprised nobody sued PT. And I'm sure Gilmour liked it if he heard it (not sure about Waters though  ). If anyone read the "There's a riff in there that's
very similar, just different enough to not get sued" quote as in "I wanted to copy PF but didn't want to get sued", then, well, I'd have no further comment 
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:56 |
infandous wrote:
lazland wrote:
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
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Here is the exact quote (and link to the interview): "So you hear a very deliberate
reference to Pink Floyd for example. The first album I ever bought was Animals. There's a riff in there that's
very similar, just different enough to not get sued."
http://www.dprp.net/specials/2009_porcupinetree/
I am sure other bands have done this, and maybe never acknowledged it, so at least Wilson admits to it. Of course, he also claims that he always gets annoyed when other songs of his get compared to Floyd (like The Sky Moves Sideways.......which I think sounds even more like Floyd than Time Flies, especially the first several minutes).
But really, all music is a result of building on music that came before it, even (and especially) music from the 60's and 70's. Certainly prog bands were never shy about adding uncredited classical melodies to their music (and not just ELP).
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Well, yeah, but it doesn't usually matter if they're dead people with not patent on them anyway. I'm think anyone's allowed to quote Back of whatever. Obviously with 20th/21st century composes it's different (and certain older ones who still have estates collecting royalties), but ELP were luck again with Copeland... (I recall him saying he liked it, but did not understand why they placed atonal solos in between two fairly tonal sections, lol)
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:50 |
lazland wrote:
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
|
Here is the exact quote (and link to the interview): "So you hear a very deliberate
reference to Pink Floyd for example. The first album I ever bought was Animals. There's a riff in there that's
very similar, just different enough to not get sued." http://www.dprp.net/specials/2009_porcupinetree/ I am sure other bands have done this, and maybe never acknowledged it, so at least Wilson admits to it. Of course, he also claims that he always gets annoyed when other songs of his get compared to Floyd (like The Sky Moves Sideways.......which I think sounds even more like Floyd than Time Flies, especially the first several minutes). But really, all music is a result of building on music that came before it, even (and especially) music from the 60's and 70's. Certainly prog bands were never shy about adding uncredited classical melodies to their music (and not just ELP).
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13780
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:48 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
lazland wrote:
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
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I don't remember touching this issue, though, Steve, I only recall us not agreeing on how good the album is (it bored the hell out of you and you found it a step in the wrong direction if I'm not wrong).
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My short term memory is appalling Alex, but you are definitely correct in recalling the "boring" issue. My apologies if I have not remembered the "plagiarism" argument correctly. However, I stand by previous comments I have made regarding Wilson being lucky not to have the arse sued off of him.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:46 |
lazland wrote:
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
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I don't remember touching this issue, though, Steve, I only recall us not agreeing on how good the album is (it bored the hell out of you and you found it a step in the wrong direction if I'm not wrong).
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13780
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:45 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Regarding Led Zep -
It is customary, encouraged even, for blues musicians to adapt and develop each other's melodies and chord progressions. In the then-recent advent of Blues-Rock, such a principle applies doubly so with the new rock element there to play around with. Page commited no crime just as Emerson didn't with his Copland and Brubeck.
Anyway they aren't a prog band! |
Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).
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I would rather suspect Grant, the manager who couldn't stand giving away even a dime, of not giving the full information when licensing Zepp's music, than suspecting the band of trying to cover what they (so obviously) borrowed, reinterpreted, etc.
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I've never heard about this Grant guy, but it sounds like he could of contributed. To be honest though, I still think Page and Plant are pretty dodgy. Did you read that quote? It did seem like Page and Plant were deliberately trying to cover it up (changing the lyrics and whatnot). And remember - not all of them are that obvious. A lot of them are pretty damn obscure bands.
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Peter Grant was a man mountain, both physically and in terms of bulldozing his way to what he and the band wanted, and not a great deal stood in his way. On one occasion, he occasioned GBH. The little matter of "inspiration" certainly wouldn't have stopped him.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13780
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:43 |
infandous wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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You're right Mike. I have had this debate with Alex on more than one occasion, and neither of us will change our position, but mine remains that Wilson was exceptionally lucky/close not to get sued.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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Nathaniel607
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 28 2010
Status: Offline
Points: 374
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:42 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
Nathaniel607 wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Regarding Led Zep -
It is customary, encouraged even, for blues musicians to adapt and develop each other's melodies and chord progressions. In the then-recent advent of Blues-Rock, such a principle applies doubly so with the new rock element there to play around with. Page commited no crime just as Emerson didn't with his Copland and Brubeck.
Anyway they aren't a prog band! |
Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).
|
I would rather suspect Grant, the manager who couldn't stand giving away even a dime, of not giving the full information when licensing Zepp's music, than suspecting the band of trying to cover what they (so obviously) borrowed, reinterpreted, etc.
|
I've never heard about this Grant guy, but it sounds like he could of contributed. To be honest though, I still think Page and Plant are pretty dodgy. Did you read that quote? It did seem like Page and Plant were deliberately trying to cover it up (changing the lyrics and whatnot). And remember - not all of them are that obvious. A lot of them are pretty damn obscure bands.
Totally unrelated to this statement, but have you heard this one?
timburlane wrote:
Do you mean that track on It's A Beautiful Day's eponymous album? I nearly choked when I heard it! Did they sue Purple? they should've done |
Yep. They've admitted to stealing it... well, they said they were "inspired" by it, lol.
infandous wrote:
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close. |
But that's not good. If he thought he'd get sued for it, he should of asked for permission or paid royalties. Not just try and cover it up...
Edited by Nathaniel607 - January 17 2011 at 12:44
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infandous
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 23 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2447
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:40 |
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Well, to paraphrase Steven Wilson (don't have the exact quote handy), he changed the music just enough to not get sued. The song he was paying tribute to was Dogs, I believe, but the Animals album as a whole as well. He's on record on this one, so it's really a tribute, and he doesn't actually plagiarize at all in that song. But it certainly is damn close.
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
|
Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:25 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
thehallway wrote:
Regarding Led Zep -
It is customary, encouraged even, for blues musicians to adapt and develop each other's melodies and chord progressions. In the then-recent advent of Blues-Rock, such a principle applies doubly so with the new rock element there to play around with. Page commited no crime just as Emerson didn't with his Copland and Brubeck.
Anyway they aren't a prog band! |
Errr... but you're supposed to give credit! There's no excuse. They should have either made it a cover, or at least given credit (and royalties).
|
I would rather suspect Grant, the manager who couldn't stand giving away even a dime, of not giving the full information when licensing Zepp's music, than suspecting the band of trying to cover what they (so obviously) borrowed, reinterpreted, etc.
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timburlane
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:09 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Thanks for nuancing 
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no probs! it's important to be concise 
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never eat anything bigger than your head
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 12:07 |
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny! |
Thanks for nuancing
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timburlane
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:52 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
|
The song starts with an acoustic guitar riff which is eerily similar to the one which opens "Dogs" and there is an instrumental section which is frankly identical to the one in "Sheep" - in truth I was being a little sharp using "rip-off" over "sounding like" but firstly it is a bit more than sounds like and secondly it's not as funny!
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never eat anything bigger than your head
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timburlane
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:47 |
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Another track I like but which smells a bit of someone else's work is Rainbow's Stargazer - It's not a rip-off but you definitely get the feeling that Blackmore was playing close attention to what Page was doing with Led Zep, specifically "Kashmir"
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never eat anything bigger than your head
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:44 |
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Explain then.
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lazland
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 28 2008
Location: Wales
Status: Offline
Points: 13780
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:39 |
timburlane wrote:
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No |
Correct.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
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timburlane
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:37 |
harmonium.ro wrote:
^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off". |
No
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never eat anything bigger than your head
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin
Joined: August 18 2008
Location: Anna Calvi
Status: Offline
Points: 22989
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:34 |
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^ I think you're confusing "sounding like" with "ripping off".
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timburlane
Forum Groupie
Joined: March 09 2006
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 58
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:31 |
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The Porcupine Tree song "Time Flies" on the incident (which I happen to like) maages to rip off not only "Dogs" but "Sheep" as well from Floyd's animals although it's possible with Steve Wilson this might be intentional given the subject matter of the song
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never eat anything bigger than your head
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: January 17 2011 at 11:27 |
Nathaniel607 wrote:
Nice post! I agree with this but I also want to say that people seem to be concentrating on what bands "sound" like as opposed to actual composition.
Walter seems to want bands to invent new instruments and notes every time they write a song, but just because a composition uses the same instruments, or even the same textures or the same chords, doesn't mean it isn't original. |
Good observation. I think, rather than the scene being generally highly derivative, what we are seeing is a lot of fans don't mind the bands being derivative if they evoke a certain kind of sound they like. So, derivative and more original albums alike have less divergent ratings or even appreciation and we are then faced with a sea of highly rated, highly derivative bands. Also, what some people may be addressing is more a lack of brilliance. From what modern prog I have heard, there's not much I'd consider brilliant, though quite a lot that I'd consider good or very good. But just because an album is not brilliant doesn't mean there's no effort to be original on the part of the songwriter(s).
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