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Barbu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 09 2005
Location: infinity
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Points: 30850
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:18 |
^Haven't seen anything from ELP live, must buy a couple of DVD. Which one would you recommend Doug? Thanks a lot.
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presdoug
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 24 2010
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 8615
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:12 |
richardh wrote:
DiamondDog wrote:
I don't disagree with any of that. What I meant by "at the expense of the music" was the ethos was principally about the playing rather than the composition, personal execution was way ahead of the queue. Sometimes, especially early on, that wasn't a great problem, there was a hub of creativity that stood up to the challenge. Later though, the creativity tended to run of space. I still would defend them as a musical unit, and somewhat resent the volume of unfair criticism they attract. |
I think it was true of the Karn Evil 9 1st Impression Track which does seem to have one solo after another. Trouble is with ELP its very hard to seperate playing from composition. Some even believe that solos don't really exist as they are just part of the music. So its gets very subjective and depends on what you really want to listen to. Its healthy (imo) to listen to a variety of different things. ELP were just a different thing amongst many different things at the time. I suspect more the issue was that the band was not always pulling in one direction. There does seem to me a lot of musical 'fighting' going on as they push each other but it can be a lot of fun to watch on the DVD's if not so much so on a live CD. |
Yeah, they are something to watch on DVD, i have many with ELP, and never loose interest in them for a second!
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 15:09 |
Kar Evil 9 1st Impression is ONE of the most iconic prog rock tracks of all time - it's influenced many a prog track since - and the GOOD thing about ELP is the absence of GOD bothering lyrics and obviously sci-fi influenced KE9.
"Next upon a stool we've a sight to make you drool, seven virgins and a mule - keep it cool - keep it cool" - I've always loved the lyrics....
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 14:56 |
DiamondDog wrote:
I don't disagree with any of that. What I meant by "at the expense of the music" was the ethos was principally about the playing rather than the composition, personal execution was way ahead of the queue. Sometimes, especially early on, that wasn't a great problem, there was a hub of creativity that stood up to the challenge. Later though, the creativity tended to run of space. I still would defend them as a musical unit, and somewhat resent the volume of unfair criticism they attract. |
I think it was true of the Karn Evil 9 1st Impression Track which does seem to have one solo after another. Trouble is with ELP its very hard to seperate playing from composition. Some even believe that solos don't really exist as they are just part of the music. So its gets very subjective and depends on what you really want to listen to. Its healthy (imo) to listen to a variety of different things. ELP were just a different thing amongst many different things at the time. I suspect more the issue was that the band was not always pulling in one direction. There does seem to me a lot of musical 'fighting' going on as they push each other but it can be a lot of fun to watch on the DVD's if not so much so on a live CD.
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silverpot
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: March 19 2008
Location: Sweden
Status: Offline
Points: 841
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 13:41 |
I tend to like them a lot better now than I did then. Mainly because I now hear the good humour in their music. And the wonderful gusto in Lake's singing. I was probably a bit too serious when I was young and found ELP a bit over the top.
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DiamondDog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 320
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 03:22 |
I don't disagree with any of that. What I meant by "at the expense of the music" was the ethos was principally about the playing rather than the composition, personal execution was way ahead of the queue. Sometimes, especially early on, that wasn't a great problem, there was a hub of creativity that stood up to the challenge. Later though, the creativity tended to run of space. I still would defend them as a musical unit, and somewhat resent the volume of unfair criticism they attract.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 01:31 |
DiamondDog wrote:
I suppose ELP is the epitome of musicians who want to play to the max even at the expense of the music. Still think they get far too much unfair flak though. Outstanding musicians and trailblazers. |
I'm not sure 'at the expense of the music'. ELP's were flashy but then that was something that helped them stand out. I don't believe they had it in them to write music like say Tales From Topographic Oceans. There was way too much tension in the band and just recording an album was a trial for them so doing anything as studious as that would have been impossible. They really wanted to get out and play live. Thats where they had most fun especially at Festivals like California Jam. They naturally pushed things further and further until perhaps it all became too flashy and bloated. Nevertheless their best albums still have many orginal outstanding peices and plenty of flashes of brilliance to keep most entertained. Over the years they have suffered by comparison to other bands who had produced compositions with more depth and layers. Fair enough I can live with that.
Edited by richardh - September 21 2012 at 01:33
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 21 2012 at 01:25 |
M27Barney wrote:
Anglagard - don't have any of that - that will be rectified shorty I think.
expensive though are they? |
Anything that is not available on Amazon seems to be although you might get a better price if you buy straight from their website. I got mine from a specialist prog supplier (CD services) who tends to be a bit more expensive.
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DiamondDog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 320
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 16:13 |
I suppose ELP is the epitome of musicians who want to play to the max even at the expense of the music. Still think they get far too much unfair flak though. Outstanding musicians and trailblazers.
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 14:14 |
Anglagard - don't have any of that - that will be rectified shorty I think.
expensive though are they?
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 14:05 |
I really can't remember although I spent £20 on Anglagard's latest. Rarely go above that when buying an individual CD although I have spent around £70 on box sets before.
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hobocamp
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 17 2010
Location: Fine Furniture
Status: Offline
Points: 525
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 14:00 |
^$60 for A Passion Play MFSL remix on eBay
Well worth it
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 13:55 |
Bitterblogger wrote:
If your unheard ELP consists of material after Works V 1, it's mighty disappointing. Be forewarned especially about In The Hot Seat. |
Not too sure - what happens is - I usually pick up prog (That I haven't already got, where I get it cheap - EBAY mainly) - picked up One ELP - think it was Tarkus - damaged jewel case (quickly repaced I have loads) for 0.49p + 1.10 p & p - just checked...
Off topic - whats the most anybody has paid for a prog CD?
(not a signed copy or anything like that) I think I have a few which cost me near 20 quid.....
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 13:48 |
Bitterblogger wrote:
If your unheard ELP consists of material after Works V 1, it's mighty disappointing. Be forewarned especially about In The Hot Seat. |
Have to agree mostly although Emerson ,Lake and Powell has loads of bombast and energy (if lacking in original ideas) and Black Moon pulls together a very acceptable bunch of songs only let down by a flat production. There is also a very good live album in Live In Poland (although it was unsanctioned release).
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Bitterblogger
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 04 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1719
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 13:01 |
If your unheard ELP consists of material after Works V 1, it's mighty disappointing. Be forewarned especially about In The Hot Seat.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 20 2012 at 01:09 |
^ SEBPT has some 'sh*tty' bits on it just as sh*tty as BSS but the others I will give you.
ELP certainly had a consistency problem. They could never be Pink Floyd because they enjoyed themselves too much.
BTW glad you mention the Moog solo on The Old Castle. That was the track that not only got me into ELP but also probably the first time I heard a synth being used as a lead instrument in a rock band. That track 'rocks' big time!
Edited by richardh - September 20 2012 at 01:10
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M27Barney
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 09 2006
Location: Swinton M27
Status: Offline
Points: 3136
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Posted: September 19 2012 at 06:24 |
Aye - thats criminal that is....Bee-Gees wannabe picture - I have a problem with the consitency - KE9 - impression 1 parts 1 & 2 is possibly one of the best prog rock tracks of all time - and ELP NEVER got anywhere near that good in most of their other stuff (except the moog solo in the old castle.......) to be fair I think I have some ELP CD's I have NEVER listened to....as I had some vinyl.....bought for prog collection completeness only...(SAD I AM). Brain salad surgery cannot be compared to contemporary classic like CTTE, TFTO and Foxtrot.....SEBTP....because of all the sh*tty bits on it.....benny the Bouncer anyone....!!!!
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DiamondDog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 320
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Posted: September 19 2012 at 02:19 |
Good point, and interesting post that hits on a central truth, but I stand by my statement - that aspect of writing should have had more priority, the band would have benefited, not just Lake himself. This would indeed have changed the sound and direction, but for the best (IMO), especially longer term.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28029
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Posted: September 19 2012 at 01:31 |
DiamondDog wrote:
Yes but he had the potential to be a very good writer, and IMO the band would have been much improved had that aspect been pursued. Crimson's finest hour was also Lake's, ELP should have carried the torch from that point, but went sideways instead. |
The Trilogy album actually has plenty of Lake's influence when you look at the two major songs on the album (The Endless Enigma and the title track) plus Lake's very best song (imo) From The Beginning. He also co wrote The Sheriff and Living Sin. So I think that album was the one that integrated Lake's talents the best. However I think it failed to really show a leap forward and they had to pull out something that stood out from the crowd and that was BSS. Admittedly Lake's influence on the writing was slightly curtailed and Emerson was allowed to create his symphonic prog masterpeice but that said Lake still co wrote 1st Impression (in fact he gets sole credit for part one on my CD) as well as 3rd Impression and Benny The Bouncer.Lake wasn't really marginalised in the band in any way just that ELP were a symphonic prog band not an AOR band.
BTW Crimsons finest hour was Red
Edited by richardh - September 19 2012 at 01:32
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DiamondDog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 320
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Posted: September 18 2012 at 15:46 |
Yes but he had the potential to be a very good writer, and IMO the band would have been much improved had that aspect been pursued. Crimson's finest hour was also Lake's, ELP should have carried the torch from that point, but went sideways instead.
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