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caretaker 
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 19 2010
Location: united states
Status: Offline
Points: 288
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 Posted: August 13 2010 at 18:05 |
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Good discussion. Slartibartfast stole my thunder about the search engine. I use it quite a lot for different reasons. I think that if more people would take advantage of it and the guidelines for using the site, it would help a lot .
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:53 |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 16:43 |
 O666 wrote:
Progressive music WITHOUT structure?  Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. |
Quite a lot of music doesn't have any structure, or at least not structure in the sense that a normal person would define it.
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 15:09 |
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
What??? Attitudes like this is one of the many reasons why people think those who like Prog are snobs. The rest of what I have to say is  . |
1- I think you must learn work with quote. "Learning" is very useful for you.
2- Please note to "speak seriously". Everybody free to speak about everything but when you want to analysis music (or other arts) you must have knowledge about that.
3- I'm not "SNOB" like you and I dont talk about myself. I write my opinion about this topic. If you dont want to read books or try to know about music, why insult me?
4- Music have 2 faces : a)rules and knowledges b) feel and sense. Great musician use their knowledge to impress others. They use perfect technique or perfect arrangment (for example) to make perfect music. What is your criteria for good music?
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:47 |
moshkito wrote:
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
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Weird seeing this ... specially about "progressive music"!
So much of progressive music is about experimentation and improvisation WITHOUT a structure ... that blues, jazz, rock'n'roll have such a strong tendency to make sure is there. The main issue is, you can NOT create something new unless you show the finger to the old ... just about!
A lot of progressive did do such a thing, but mostly it was a harsh reaction (drugs and all that) to the "establishment", and some of this was done with improvisations and a lot of other elements, that eventually were incorporated into "progressive" music ... namely "long cuts" .. and nowadays ... just another song that is 7 minutes long instead of 3 and still follows the A-B-A format ... how progressive, were it not for the sound effect on the guitar?
Music has been "progressive" for thousands of years ... so in a way, labeling one period "progressive" is almost the same thing as saying that any other period of music is not valid or has anything to offer and that is just plain wrong!
Analysis is over rated ... go ahead and break up your bycicle and then put it together again ... I'm not sure that you can fine tune it exactly as it was before ... it might be better ... if you are an expert on the subject but the parts are the same ... which means that it can only be better if the ability of the legs pedalling are stronger than most ... but that is not about the "music" as much as it is about your "legs". And then you are not analysing the bicycle ... you are analysing the legs? Of course, in a fun way, though, there are nice legs out there! But a new pedaling style is so different as to make it a new bycicle? I am not sure about that!
Sadly, when you state things like that, I am inclined to believe that you have not heard enough music that is free of any form whatsoever, regardless of it being accoustic, electric or what not ... and you appear to be stuck in westernized patterns that have been around for millenia that most of the "progressive" musicians that have ever been around have been trying to kill and change!
Analysis is what you do AFTER the fact ... not BEFORE and not DURING ... because otherwise you prevent the process from creating! You infuse it with things, ideas and thoughts that are not always about that specific moment in time ... |
Progressive music WITHOUT structure? Do You think experimentation and improvisation have'nt structure?
I think Progressive music or other genre of music have STRUCTURE. I talk about Progressive music because I am in Progressive site and Progressive forum. AND I did my homework 30 years later!!!!
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Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:28 |
I too get a little dismayed by people not doing their homework first. Particularly starting threads that have already been done. Psst, there's this thing called the search function, people, please. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:15 |
CinemaZebra wrote:
Gamespot was my first forum site. I was banned for being too young after a year there. |
It was mine too. I was pretty much a troll, except I believed everything I said. Looking back, I can only cringe/shudder/laugh about some of the nonsense I posted. If any of you think I'm annoying now, you should see what I was like then. I would get confrontational and make personal insults on things as irrelevant and trivial as which characters were going to be in Super Smash Bros. Brawl. I was too young, that's for sure.
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:11 |
Gamespot was my first forum site. I was banned for being too young after a year there.
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UndercoverBoy
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 10 2009
Location: Tulsa, OK, U.S.
Status: Offline
Points: 5148
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:07 |
CinemaZebra wrote:
The more popular your site is the more n00bs you get, plain and simple. |
ex. Gamespot/Faqs, IMDb, 4Chan, Youtube, etc.
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CinemaZebra
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 13 2010
Location: Ancient Rome
Status: Offline
Points: 6795
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:05 |
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The more popular your site is the more n00bs you get, plain and simple.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 14:01 |
Darklord55 wrote:
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
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Weird seeing this ... specially about "progressive music"!
So much of progressive music is about experimentation and improvisation WITHOUT a structure ... that blues, jazz, rock'n'roll have such a strong tendency to make sure is there. The main issue is, you can NOT create something new unless you show the finger to the old ... just about!
A lot of progressive did do such a thing, but mostly it was a harsh reaction (drugs and all that) to the "establishment", and some of this was done with improvisations and a lot of other elements, that eventually were incorporated into "progressive" music ... namely "long cuts" .. and nowadays ... just another song that is 7 minutes long instead of 3 and still follows the A-B-A format ... how progressive, were it not for the sound effect on the guitar?
Music has been "progressive" for thousands of years ... so in a way, labeling one period "progressive" is almost the same thing as saying that any other period of music is not valid or has anything to offer and that is just plain wrong!
Analysis is over rated ... go ahead and break up your bycicle and then put it together again ... I'm not sure that you can fine tune it exactly as it was before ... it might be better ... if you are an expert on the subject but the parts are the same ... which means that it can only be better if the ability of the legs pedalling are stronger than most ... but that is not about the "music" as much as it is about your "legs". And then you are not analysing the bicycle ... you are analysing the legs? Of course, in a fun way, though, there are nice legs out there! But a new pedaling style is so different as to make it a new bycicle? I am not sure about that!
Sadly, when you state things like that, I am inclined to believe that you have not heard enough music that is free of any form whatsoever, regardless of it being accoustic, electric or what not ... and you appear to be stuck in westernized patterns that have been around for millenia that most of the "progressive" musicians that have ever been around have been trying to kill and change!
Analysis is what you do AFTER the fact ... not BEFORE and not DURING ... because otherwise you prevent the process from creating! You infuse it with things, ideas and thoughts that are not always about that specific moment in time ...
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17497
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:47 |
Dick Heath wrote:
I feel we getting an increase in the number of threads with titles such as:
what was the first prog album,
was Lamb Lies Down first neo-prog album,
is jazz prog?
etc. ad nausem, that suggest the authors have not bothered to read the copious amounts of (non-thread) information carefully written and available here, let alone attempted to read any of the books postered here and reviewed. What is worse the reponses usually don't direct the originator to points of references. So is there a tendency here to argue rather than educate??? |
It is my opinion that there is a lot of information here on a lot of things. And a lot of reviews. No doubt about that.
The hard part is that there is no proper way to index these other than in alphabetical order for everyone to find. The other issue ... and I suppose a lot of folks say the same thing about my reviews, film included (over 200 at the IMDB for foreign and art films -- and 250 more to upload!) ... and I am probably too lazy to add all the music and album reviews.
I'm of the opinion that too many of these reviews need to be redone and people stop to say that blah and blah is neo-prog or blah-blah prog and instead go ahead and review things with one's own "personal" descriptions and views ... NEVER with supposed definitions that do not exist. I will listen to an album if you tell me that you like it and why ... I won't if you say because it is neo-prog!
The hard part, and while I do not feel like a victim, it does happen a lot in this board, is that there are some fans that are here strictly for the trolling and the spam. And while Dean and his staff need all the hits they can to help, I'm not sure they can afford to lose them.
Suggestions are tough ... it's hard to disagree with the long history of this board and Dean's and his friend's work ... but it is not "organized" if I may say so. I would prefer that there would be a large index that would help with definitions and a chart, maybe? ... if I'm new to "prog" and see all those definitions, I think I would go freaky and say ... forget that! For example ... the free legal downloads should not be in the Prog Music Lounge, even if it serves mp3's ... it takes away from the discussion!
The other part ... and I have mentioned and written about it several times ... is that the "history" of the progressive movement is ... not as well defined ... in such a way, that the sub-genres would make sense in the first place. I'm not sure that we need professors ... but I can tell you that I would gladly donate some time and effort ... I find it distressing that we call "Epitaph" prog ... but not a condeming anthem against the VietNam War and the IRA issues at the time ... which is why it was written in the first place ... and read several times in many demonstrations ... but no ... it's "prog"! ... and it takes the sould out of the piece and kinda makes KC come off like a band that wouldn't know the difference between an anti war statement and a song about Jane or another bitch! That's just one example!
As for losing fans ... I wouldn't want to lose them ... but I think that we can better house them, and maybe we need to place all new threads in one generic area and them move them to the right place ... the problem being that many folks don't know where it went to!
We might, also, consider thinking about trimming down the number of forums so that things can better be found. Some forums could be combined ... the "advertising" ones should be combined ... but if CDbaby is the parent here, I don't want to tell them what to do with their children!
Edited by moshkito - August 13 2010 at 14:20
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Darklord55
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 08 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 357
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:42 |
. I think if one guy want to speak seriously about Progressive music, he/she must know music first. I mean academic educate about music is necessary. We must know about musical structure,arrangment,accompaniment,orchestration,instruments,playing technique,rhythm,etc. Progressive music is serious genre and without musical knowledge we cant analys that completely.
What??? Attitudes like this is one of the many reasons why people think those who like Prog are snobs. The rest of what I have to say is . |
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Henry Plainview
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 26 2008
Location: Declined
Status: Offline
Points: 16715
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:25 |
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I have absolutely no interest in reading a book about prog or jazz. For the history of the genres I have the internet, and what makes the opinion of some guy who wrote a book better than somebody's opinion on this forum? Especially since something like "essential jazz albums" is hardly arcane knowledge.
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:15 |
Finnforest wrote:
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Hey, I just noticed your avatar--Over the Rhine's a great band! Nice choice.
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The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love
The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.
--Robyn Hitchcock
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 13:13 |
besotoxico wrote:
Prog to me is ultimately about freedom of expression. The more you define these freedoms of expression the more you define them out of existence. It is good to have references to help guide younger prog fans such as myself, but like O666 said music is a listening process not reading.
I have a degree in Music Composition and Theory but I don't believe music academia is necessary to understand or appreciate prog. I have played with guitarists whom don't know a lick of theory but they can play along to anything and everything. In fact I admit one of them (Brian Hudson) can out play me any day of the week but he doesn't even know his circle of fifths.
I have coworkers whom love King Crimson, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, VDGG, and more but have never read anything about prog. Should that make their opinion unworthy?
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I think I'm hearing two distinct responses coming from the original post: 1) People are starting a forum or poll (or simply posting) without having read what has already been written and posted here on the archive; 2) People should read more about prog in general and be better informed before posting.
The second point is, I believe, ideal, but I can see why it would be debatable (and damned hard to enforce!). The first, however, I think gets to something more fundamental that shapes the quality and ethos of what's done here. An eminently reasonable point.
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The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love
The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.
--Robyn Hitchcock
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besotoxico
Forum Newbie
Joined: July 06 2008
Location: ATL
Status: Offline
Points: 34
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:46 |
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Prog to me is ultimately about freedom of expression. The more you define these freedoms of expression the more you define them out of existence. It is good to have references to help guide younger prog fans such as myself, but like O666 said music is a listening process not reading.
I have a degree in Music Composition and Theory but I don't believe music academia is necessary to understand or appreciate prog. I have played with guitarists whom don't know a lick of theory but they can play along to anything and everything. In fact I admit one of them (Brian Hudson) can out play me any day of the week but he doesn't even know his circle of fifths.
I have coworkers whom love King Crimson, Genesis, Frank Zappa, Henry Cow, VDGG, and more but have never read anything about prog. Should that make their opinion unworthy?
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Lies, he only tells the truth, for he means it,
means, not anything he says, eyes unseen,
but everything is ........
So sincere, so sincere, so sincere, so sin.
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Finnforest
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 03 2007
Location: The Heartland
Status: Offline
Points: 16913
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:30 |
questionsneverknown wrote:
I think Mr Heath raises a number of good points here.
More surely can be done to direct contributors to the copious amounts of information available on the site to avoid excessive reinventing of the wheel.
I might add, perhaps digressively, that it's quite normal here to see people contribute to a thread without having read what has already been written in the thread, let alone not reading what has already been written and stored (re: definitions and histories) on the site. But that's just a personal peeve.
On a more positive note, it might be said that while argumentative strands take up some space and attention on the threads, much education occurs as well. I constantly see contributors providing histories or introducing the names of lesser known bands and genres. I know that I've definitely learned some things along the way! |
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questionsneverknown
Forum Senior Member
Joined: June 22 2009
Location: Ultima Thule
Status: Offline
Points: 602
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:26 |
I think Mr Heath raises a number of good points here. More surely can be done to direct contributors to the copious amounts of information available on the site to avoid excessive reinventing of the wheel.
I might add, perhaps digressively, that it's quite normal here to see people contribute to a thread without having read what has already been written in the thread, let alone not reading what has already been written and stored (re: definitions and histories) on the site. But that's just a personal peeve.
On a more positive note, it might be said that while argumentative strands take up some space and attention on the threads, much education occurs as well. I constantly see contributors providing histories or introducing the names of lesser known bands and genres. I know that I've definitely learned some things along the way! |
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The damage that we do is just so powerfully strong we call it love
The damage that we do just goes on and on and on but not long enough.
--Robyn Hitchcock
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 13 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 6898
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Posted: August 13 2010 at 12:21 |
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I think the first book about "prog " was Rocking The Classics : English Proressive Rock and by Edward Macan. Macan is a university prof and this was more of a scholarly work. that went into a lot of music theory. I've also read more recently Emerson's book, Bruford's book and Wakeman's hillarious Grumpy Old Rock Star I also have McLaughlin's biography. I think many of my reviews reflect that I've read a lot about the subject over the years since the mid 16th century when God created me.
I read so much I can't confine it to just reading about progrock. I'd rather just listen to it. I think it'ts not something that I'd get to academic over. It's more of a pastime for me . An escape.
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/PAlogo_v2.gif "Progarchives.com Homepage")
How many members actually read about Prog?
