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Atavachron View Drop Down
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 16:12
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Yeah. Progressive rock is full of silly clichés too, and the thing that must be understood is that usually the goofy stuff is just stylistic surface elements that have no bearing on the substance of the music. At least it is in the better examples of both genres. Same thing goes for punk and rap, genres that are (as I mentioned earlier in the thread) recognized as legitimate forms of subversive art by the same outside world that dismisses metal as dated kitsch.

That said, I think Atavachron kinda shoots himself in the foot by suggesting Diary of a Madman as an example of metal being as sophisticated as Pink Floyd or ELP. LOL I'd personally have pointed to Sin after Sin or The Spectre Within.


oh I see  LOL
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 15:01
you know... I tried to be that 'Butch the metal head' in my youth... but the younger kids just laughed at me when they saw me coming.. all primed up to steal lunch money and kick some ass... wearing ...proudly I must add.... my RATT T-shirt... even told me to get a f**king hair-cut. Ouch

maybe that explains my picking on the nerds around here... wearing  their Rush T-shirts LOL

I guess we all carry around our childhood traumas hahha
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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 14:56
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:


So TM and the other haters, turn the mirror on yourselves. All music has admirers beyond what we commonly see as the stereotype. 10 year old bluegrass mandolin players. 60 year metal or punk fans. AND musicians. When I was 16 I was told by a friend that I would grow out of the heavy music I liked at the time. I also listened to mellower stuff. At 46, The metal I listen to now is way heavier and noisier than the Zep, Kiss and Deep Purple from back then.  The prog stuff  like UZ, Gentle Giant, RPI, and others, is more varied than the Rush, Yes, and Supertramp from my youth. But I've also gained an appreciation for come country music, some jazz, and gone beyond Beethoven to explore Classical music.
But I still love& listen to most of the music I did when i was 16, 26, 35, and 45.

I even know a 50 year old who relishes dance music. And he's not gay.

Some genres do indeed have a certain segment that they tend to attract. But then, if you limit it to age you forget one major factor. A person is likely more interested in new things such as art or music in their youth & young adulthood. It is rare for a 50 year to all of a sudden develop a mania for all things musical. If the most interest you ever showed was turning on your radio, and leaving it a local station, you're not likely to go out searching for new music or artists. You're O.K. with what is served up. Whether it be classical music, rock, country, or whatever might be on your local community station.

I don't know of anyone who decides one day that "I am now 40 years old. I will no longer admire AC/DC, but will instead adore Art Zoyd". It's more like, I used to listen to them, but I haven't for years. Now I like X, or Y, although I sometimes still put on Z. But then, I don't listen to music as much since I got the XBox. And I just got my new Home Sound System , and you should come over and watch Spiderman on my new BluRay, man.

I.E. if you were one of the curious, constantly searching and open to new things, chances are that you'll continue to be no matter your age. If you were just into what you were into at whatever age you were into "it" , that won't change either. And in both cases, whatever you were or are into isn't any better or more important because of your age. It is simply whether you got something out of it.

Unless of course, you feel the need to build up your lack of self esteem by puffing up your pomposities to hide your insecurities ...Evil Smile

So please, take some time to think. Not stink, think. Ask yourself - why do you need to insult others ? Do you really need to feel superior ? Do you need a girlfriend ? Can you afford a psychologist ? Can you forgive Butch the metal head  for having punched you in the arm in grade 11 ?
I mean, can't we all just get along  even as kvetch together ...

 
ClapClapClapClapClapClapClapClap
 
Saved me a lot of time... Especially the last three paragraphs..
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Points: 1955 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 14:41
Originally posted by debrewguy debrewguy wrote:

 
So please, take some time to think. Not stink, think. Ask yourself - why do you need to insult others ? Do you really need to feel superior ? Do you need a girlfriend ? Can you afford a psychologist ? Can you forgive Butch the metal head  for having punched you in the arm in grade 11 ?
I mean, can't we all just get along  even as kvetch together ...

oh man, What a MONSTER post !!  you've pretty much summed up all we were arguing for the last couple of weeks. Clap

and these last sentences of yours are so intense, powerfull, inspiring. Bravo.   
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Points: 3596 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 12:37
I once played some "serious" "grown up" music for my parents and grandparents. They didn't like it, and really just left it at "well, it's nice that you have hobbies you enjoy". Even today, if my parents or in laws walk in as I'm listening to AC/DC, Univers Zero or Beethoven, they end up asking for it to be turned down or off. And they still see it as one of the "youthful hobbies" that I have kept since I was a teenager.
These people have raised families, survived recessions, and more. Therefore I would argue that they have a certain "maturity".

None of them see UZ or Mr B as childish. Anymore than they do Kiss, AC/DC or other such groups. They do think that the Disney acts are aimed at the tweens, but then that's the nature of such groups. The rest of music, they leave their opinion at "it's your taste, not mine".

Thus "

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things."

This could also be interpreted to include such acts & attitudes as "my music is better than yours, because it's better, therefore I am too."

Remember those teenage days when it seemed to make sense to argue that group X was better than group Y because X was more "real". Or that Group T just made music for money. Or even more childish - group A can't be any good , because THOSE people like them.

Once you get to be an adult, most just go "I like/dislike this song/album/band/music". And leave it at that, knowing full well that it is a matter of subjective taste, not objective fact.

Using the stereotypical demographic for any genre is no more valid in proving your point than saying "my favourite group" uses 11/4 , while "yours" barely manages 4/4. Neither is an objective measure of quality, and is but a somewhat concrete way to describe the music, not judge it.

Of course, then the other point is that someone who feels he needs to debase those that disagree with him forgets that this approach says more about his "maturity" than anything else. "I'm right, and you're wrong  because you're an idiot, while I am king of the world and all knowledge, bow before me!"

After all, an opinion's validity (and that is what is being debated here ) is based not on a person's age, maturity, wealth, education, knowledge, "expertise", gender, or any other classification. It is limited to the opinion itself. Does it make sense ? What is the reasoning behind it ? Can it be explained clearly ? Can it withstand questioning ? I.E. just how good is it. And when it is about something that cannot be objectively measured  (hint hint - music or the arts) then the arguement is simply a difference of opinion.

So TM and the other haters, turn the mirror on yourselves. All music has admirers beyond what we commonly see as the stereotype. 10 year old bluegrass mandolin players. 60 year metal or punk fans. AND musicians. When I was 16 I was told by a friend that I would grow out of the heavy music I liked at the time. I also listened to mellower stuff. At 46, The metal I listen to now is way heavier and noisier than the Zep, Kiss and Deep Purple from back then.  The prog stuff  like UZ, Gentle Giant, RPI, and others, is more varied than the Rush, Yes, and Supertramp from my youth. But I've also gained an appreciation for come country music, some jazz, and gone beyond Beethoven to explore Classical music.
But I still love& listen to most of the music I did when i was 16, 26, 35, and 45.

I even know a 50 year old who relishes dance music. And he's not gay.

Some genres do indeed have a certain segment that they tend to attract. But then, if you limit it to age you forget one major factor. A person is likely more interested in new things such as art or music in their youth & young adulthood. It is rare for a 50 year to all of a sudden develop a mania for all things musical. If the most interest you ever showed was turning on your radio, and leaving it a local station, you're not likely to go out searching for new music or artists. You're O.K. with what is served up. Whether it be classical music, rock, country, or whatever might be on your local community station.

I don't know of anyone who decides one day that "I am now 40 years old. I will no longer admire AC/DC, but will instead adore Art Zoyd". It's more like, I used to listen to them, but I haven't for years. Now I like X, or Y, although I sometimes still put on Z. But then, I don't listen to music as much since I got the XBox. And I just got my new Home Sound System , and you should come over and watch Spiderman on my new BluRay, man.

I.E. if you were one of the curious, constantly searching and open to new things, chances are that you'll continue to be no matter your age. If you were just into what you were into at whatever age you were into "it" , that won't change either. And in both cases, whatever you were or are into isn't any better or more important because of your age. It is simply whether you got something out of it.

Unless of course, you feel the need to build up your lack of self esteem by puffing up your pomposities to hide your insecurities ...Evil Smile

So please, take some time to think. Not stink, think. Ask yourself - why do you need to insult others ? Do you really need to feel superior ? Do you need a girlfriend ? Can you afford a psychologist ? Can you forgive Butch the metal head  for having punched you in the arm in grade 11 ?
I mean, can't we all just get along  even as kvetch together ...

Edited by debrewguy - March 10 2009 at 12:41
"Here I am talking to some of the smartest people in the world and I didn't even notice,” Lieutenant Columbo, episode The Bye-Bye Sky-High I.Q. Murder Case.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 09:40
^ that's a great album ... I like it a lot! But I think that this type of Doom Metal will not win favors with everyone ... 
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Points: 377 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 09:24
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


To sum it up: If you growl on a few songs: Nothing wrong with it. If you do it all the time: Ridiculous.


Generally I'd say that whenever an artist uses a highly distinctive technique too much, there's a chance that people will grow tired of it. *Contrast* is something that I always look for in music ... but then again that doesn't mean that artists should change style all the time, does it? Every artist is (or should be) unique. If some use growling all the time (or double bass, another technique you don't like), contrast might be achieved by changing other elements of the music.

To sum up my response: If the growling fits the music: nothing wrong with it. If it doesn't: I'm not comfortable with using words like "ridiculous" because I think they're disrespectful to the artist, but I certainly will give lower ratings to such albums.

You still don't seem to get my take on double-bass drumming. I am not objected to it per se; in fact there is a drummer I like very much who plays with two bass drums (he is listed in the "different kind of drum poll I made; see if you can spot him there).
http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=55755&FID=42


No, what I dislike is what most people do with a double bass-drum. They could learn a lot from the man I am talking of, who has a very tasteful way of using them. Of course that's MY taste only; others may disagree.
I am actually thinking of getting a second hi-hat for my kit, by the way. As far as I know nobody has ever done that. Wink. Makes at least as much sense as a double bass drum. I would actually like to take some songs which use excessive double bass-drumming and record them again using two hi-hats instead of two bass drums. Of course other changes would have to happen in the arrangement of the song.
And with growling it is just the same. If it fits, fine; but just as with double bass-drumming people use it to excess.
Since I am a in the culinary business, let me use a culinary metaphor: Double bass drumming is like a spice; use to much of it, and the flavour of the food gets lost; you only taste the spice.


I think you're over-simplifying the matter. My guess is that you generally don't like the aggressiveness of metal, and you can't take it seriously. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, but you can't really expect others to adopt such an extreme point of view. In any genre, if I want some advice I will try to find someone who likes what the genre is about. If I want some extreme metal recommendations I would try to find some one who enjoys growling and/or double bass, and the typical metal topics/lyrics. These persons will not like all the albums the same ... even among those albums which feature growling in every track an expert (as in: having listened to a great deal of albums) will tell you that some are better and some are worse, on some the growling is appropriate on on others not so much, and so on. What I'm trying to say is that your point of view is simply extremely biased. Yet you continue to look down on those who don't share it ... exemplified by your statement that those other drummers "could learn a lot" from the guy who *you* happen to like. I think that's the basic difference between you and me (or more specifically, between our posts): You tell people what's better than their favorite music and artists, I tell people what they might also enjoy. Not that there aren't bands that I don't like and which in my opinion are overrated ... but I don't have to mention it all the time.


Wrong, totally wrong! I love aggressiveness! But I don't consider double bass-drumming to be aggressive at all, at least not those "thunderstorms". That's where we seem to differ. Actually I am pretty much disappointed by most prog metal bands because of the lack of aggressiveness. Speed and double-bass drumming don't make music aggressive at all when it is all flat and consonant and not in the least off-key, which is where real aggressiveness comes from, in my opinion. This is what mostly disappoints me about prog metal. There may be exceptions, but it is mostly right. Most prog metal bands are really "tame", in my opinion; I have yet to find a prog metal band that is as aggressive as, for example, High Tide.
Jean and are currently taking a tour through all the prog metal bands in the archives, by the way, and listen to any sound examples we can find, weither here or on youtube or elsewhere. We are still at "A", so it will take some more time.
Some bands which are filed under prog metal which we have already listened to we would have put under "heavy prog" and not under "prog metal". But we will make a complete report of our opinions (with seperate votes) once we have fisinshed with them all. So far nothing really exiting yet, but we only just started. And of course we will come across names which aere already familiar to us, though we are definitely not experts on prog metal. But that's mostly because of what we heard so far did not excite us at all, including the examples you gave us. Our impression about prog metal is "Dogs that bark but don't bite at all". All too clean and neat to be really aggressive.


BaldFriede you seem to have listened to much prog metal and got dissapointed. Same here i can tell you (I like old thrash and NWOBHM mostly), and I'm not much for the growling too. But sometimes growling can be good, Saturnus uses it in a great way imo.


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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 05:15
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ he didn't actually say that Diary of a Madman was as sophisticated as PF or ELP ... he just said that it's "up there" in terms of quality. And that's IMO a very important point.


Point taken, I listen to a lot of music that isn't very sophisticated or original. I own not one but three Hellacopters albums, for crying out loud.

However, I don't judge them by the same standard as I do more cerebral stuff because "quality" means something completely different depending on what an album is setting out to do in the first place. Mentioning Diary of a Madman in the same phrase as Meddle and Tarkus therefore strikes me as a bit apples-and-oranges-y, and it's unlikely to make trademark change his mind if Atavachron says something that can be interpreted as Diary of a Madman being the closest metal has to an album that's the same level and kind of quality as Tarkus. I don't mean that this is what Atavachron meant to say, mind you, just that it can be seen that way.

Quote Maybe The Wall is a childish album, especially the line "we don't need no education" ... but does that mean we should burn it at the age of 25?


Calling The Wall childish is IMO missing its point. Yes, it is a concept album about a childish individual or at least one who really never transcended the things that held him back during his childhood and the neuroses that followed but it is strongly critical of this entire aspect of his personality because it leads to his life being incredibly dysfunctional. The album ends with him finally confronting the inner demons instead of hiding from them.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 04:49
^ he didn't actually say that Diary of a Madman was as sophisticated as PF or ELP ... he just said that it's "up there" in terms of quality. And that's IMO a very important point. Metal is a mature genre because it features a *lot* of albums which are not only of high quality in terms of musicianship, engineering and mastering, but also of songwriting and composition. If that wasn't true, there wouldn't be so many respected music experts who, even many decades after their adolescence, still consider some of those metal albums among their very favorites. They might even acknowledge that some of these albums could be called childish, but that doesn't necessarily diminish their quality. Maybe The Wall is a childish album, especially the line "we don't need no education" ... but does that mean we should burn it at the age of 25? I doubt that, and neither should we leave metal behind automatically just because we grow older.
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 04:36
Yeah. Progressive rock is full of silly clichés too, and the thing that must be understood is that usually the goofy stuff is just stylistic surface elements that have no bearing on the substance of the music. At least it is in the better examples of both genres. Same thing goes for punk and rap, genres that are (as I mentioned earlier in the thread) recognized as legitimate forms of subversive art by the same outside world that dismisses metal as dated kitsch.

That said, I think Atavachron kinda shoots himself in the foot by suggesting Diary of a Madman as an example of metal being as sophisticated as Pink Floyd or ELP. LOL I'd personally have pointed to Sin after Sin or The Spectre Within.
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Points: 65249 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 04:11
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.  When I was 15 I enjoyed a lot of the metal of the time.  Now I see it for the juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting.  What it is, is COMEDY to anyone who has managed to achieve a bit of emotional maturity.


Of course metal can be juvenile, but so can prog.  The point that's being missed is quality; I'm in my early 40s and still think Diary of a Madman is right up there with Giant Steps, Meddle, and Tarkus.  Of course it's OK to grow up, in fact it's very important.  But you don't have to forsake things, you just have to continue to grow.
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Points: 14693 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 10 2009 at 03:48
Could someone explain, is this the "In the Defense of Criticism Towards Metal" thread or "In the Defense of Criticism Towards Trademark" thread?

Back to the original subject matter, perhaps?

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Points: 17493 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 09 2009 at 18:55
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Points: 4702 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2009 at 09:21
So what's wrong with comedy?
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Points: 11415 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 07 2009 at 20:51
Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:

My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.  When I was 15 I enjoyed a lot of the metal of the time.  Now I see it for the juvenile genre it really is.  I understand fully why my Dad laughed his ass off at Black Sabbath when they were on TV.  It really IS funny.  Metal is not dark, evil, sinister, mean or angry; it is not intellectually or emotionally deep, intriguing, or even very interesting.  What it is, is COMEDY to anyone who has managed to achieve a bit of emotional maturity.


As a very cranky and balding 46 year old neer-do-well, I just wanna say:

Well said that man, someone who at least has the balls to express what most of the angst ridden white liberal apologists on this forum covertly believe.
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Points: 1955 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:28
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ opinion is usually not a matter of right and wrong ... it's rather about which is the most agreeable among a certain group of people. 
 i agree on this one. It is personal 
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Points: 4202 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:11
Originally posted by angelmk angelmk wrote:

So my man , why are you arguing  for 2 days, when all the members from progarchives(and not just them) claiming the contrary from Trademarks's opinion. How can one be right and all the others to be wrong. his opinion of metal is diferent from  ours , we don't fail  to see his point, he fail to present his point . because it is POINTLESS.


Bah... you fail to see any value in what Trademark writes (I don't), and try to ridicule him instead. I think most replies shows a lack of being able to see oneself from the outside. 

I disagree with his general approach, but disagree even more with the rest of you. I rarely any have a complete contrary opinion, neither am I too often in full agreement. That's an attitude for fanboys or fundamentalists. I don't like this "we" and "all of us" claim way of stating things.  That's a lot worse way of generalizing, if you ask  me.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 09:02
^ opinion is usually not a matter of right and wrong ... it's rather about which is the most agreeable among a certain group of people. 
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Points: 1955 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 07:46
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:

 

My posts aren't dead serious. You just never see it, because I don't use emoticons.

I actually wrote in my first post here that refusing to grow up could be a good thing. In general, don't agree  with Trademark. I reacted because people took it personal and failed to see his point, and started adding stuff that wasn't there.

EUREKA , said Archimedes once.  So my man , why are you arguing  for 2 days, when all the members from progarchives(and not just them) claiming the contrary from Trademarks's opinion. How can one be right and all the others to be wrong. his opinion of metal is diferent from  ours , we don't fail  to see his point, he fail to present his point . because it is POINTLESS.
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 05 2009 at 04:11
^ this is the quote from Trademark's post that you seem to always be referring to:

Originally posted by Trademark Trademark wrote:


My feelings about metal in general can be summed up by the following:

"When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things." (1Cor. 13:11)

One of the most negative aspects of the dominance of US culture in the world is the concept of "Perpetual Youth".  It really is OK to grow up.


First of all, that quote from the bible is causing the reactions from all those who don't think that all metal is childish. Trademark may not have said "metal is childish", but he says that his feelings about metal are summed up by the quote. He says "in general", but that doesn't make a big difference IMO.

Now please don't think that I would take all of this personal ... I simply have a contrary view and I think the matter is important, so I voice my disagreement. With the second part of his post I even agree: There's no point in refusing to grow up. But at the same time, I don't think it's good to completely abandon every aspect of your childhood. As a child I dreaded the thought that at some point I could end up being just like my parents. Today, I have to say that in some aspects I am ... but luckily I preserved some things. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while it is ok to grow up, it shouldn't be like flicking a switch ... like on my 30th birthday I abandon my childhood and am now an entirely different person. Instead I'm trying to stay young in my heart and at the same time keep in mind that I am not young anymore. IMO *that*'s the definition of not being a child/adolescent anymore: To realize that it's not all fun and games ... and that your time is slowly, but steadily running out.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - March 05 2009 at 04:11
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