Israel/Gaza: Calling all UK forum members.

npjnpj wrote: Having Israel in that location just isn't working out. Fault equally on both sides, from what I've gathered. Why isn't Israel re-located to somewhere like Arizona? The natives are friendlier there, I've heard. It's not the holy land, granted, isn't it better to live in peace than have a war that will never end?

omri wrote: 1. The settlers and the Israeli governments more or less open support of their behaviour Not exactly and never as a policy. It's more the lack of preventing some settlers (a deffinite small minority) than any government decision. Ah yeah, and the military support for the settlers is accidental rather than planned by the government then. In that case Israel have a masive problem with power abuse in the armed forces. 2. Israel's constant efforts in trying to drive away people in territories surrounding their nation to expand their boundaries If you were in Lebanon you should know better than that. Israel never took a squared inch from Lebanon's land. Hmmm, guess 1967 never happened then - just a figment of our imaginations? 3. Planned murder of civilians with the excuse that "there are surely terrorists among them" No ! there were ocasions where after shooting a place where a terorist shot first from, it was discovered that civilians were there too (civilians who never prevented the shooting but in some cases could not). This is not a planned murder. Random bombardment of civilian areas happens just by accident....for decades? I find that rather hard to believe. 4. The ideology that a Palestine/Muslim is worth less than other human beings (reported to me by one of my colleagues who visited Israel last year) There is no such ideology. The sraeli law says that all citizens equalls the same and have the same rights. I think you are messing between stupid personal thoughts of individuals and iseology. I'm quite sure I can find in Norway people that thinks Nords are better than others (actually I've been to Norway and met few a****les who were thinking so. Does that mean that Norway have such an ideology ?). An Israeli journalist was quoted with that being a prevalent opinion in the majority of the population. If that can be coined an ideology or if it's just the majority of the population that are a''holes can of course be discussed.

omri wrote: That is true if you count only the last weeks. In the last 8 years about a 1000 of Israeli civilians were killed by human bombers and missiles. Are you more sattisfied of the death proportions now ?

tszirmay wrote: ^^^^^That was the original "intent" of the Balfour agreement! The idea was to do precisely that (read the Israeli declaration of independence by Ben Gurion) , BTW, what about the nearly 1 million Palestinian-Arab-Israelis living in the pre-1967 regions of Israel? Everyone seems to ignore this reality. And I saw with my eyes that they were not living in squalid ghettoes and ostracized. But the media is not interested in this verifiable fact. Hypocrisy , as usual.

toroddfuglesteg wrote: tszirmay wrote: ^^^^^That was the original "intent" of the Balfour agreement! The idea was to do precisely that (read the Israeli declaration of independence by Ben Gurion) , BTW, what about the nearly 1 million Palestinian-Arab-Israelis living in the pre-1967 regions of Israel? Everyone seems to ignore this reality. And I saw with my eyes that they were not living in squalid ghettoes and ostracized. But the media is not interested in this verifiable fact. Hypocrisy , as usual. The fact is that this area now have a race they call untermensch and a race they now call ubermensch. I thought we had learnt the lessons from WW2, but Israel has proved me wrong. If I treated an animal like Israel treats the palestinians in Hebron and in Gaza, I would had been put in jail. That's the facts of this conflict. What's happening in Hebron is shameful and utterly shameful.

tszirmay wrote: ^^^^^That was the original "intent" of the Balfour agreement! The idea was to do precisely that (read the Israeli declaration of independence by Ben Gurion) , BTW, what about the nearly 1 million Palestinian-Arab-Israelis living in the pre-1967 regions of Israel? Everyone seems to ignore this reality. And I saw with my eyes that they were not living in squalid ghettoes and ostracized. But the media is not interested in this verifiable fact. Hypocrisy , as usual.

The fact is that this area now have a race they call untermensch and a race they now call ubermensch. I thought we had learnt the lessons from WW2, but Israel has proved me wrong. If I treated an animal like Israel treats the palestinians in Hebron and in Gaza, I would had been put in jail. That's the facts of this conflict.

What's happening in Hebron is shameful and utterly shameful.  

Windhawk wrote: Heh, from what I know of local conditions down there, it's a drawing that speaks volumes about the distribution of power. Israel controls water supply to Palestina, Israeli soldiers decide whether or not most Palestinians are allowed to get to work - as many work in Israel or Israel-controlled area; the recent admission of Israel in the use of white phosphor in bombarments against civilan areas in Palestine comes to mind. And the somewhat unjust power balance between a professional modern army that can call on the help of the US with the snap of a finger and an underground guerilla movement is an undeniable fact. It is also a fact that there is at least 100 Palestinian victims for each one on the Israeli side. For those facets of the conflict this drawing is very much representative - originally published in a Norwegian newspaper earlier this year. BTW - a minor detail in the grand debate worth looking at for thise interested in the state of affairs down there: http://mondediplo.com/2008/09/07israel

As I've mentioned previously in this thread, I personally have no issue with a modern army using white phosphorous in battle, especially with it being used as recently as the Second World War. However, I can understand how using such a weapon would become an issue. And as I also have previously mentioned, Israel is fighting an enemy that stockpiles their militants and weapons in public areas such as mosques, so more civilians are bound to be killed. And I really don't see my country's forces physically involved in the current conflict. They shouldn't be, as the rest of the world needs to eventually get the hint that America's responsibility is to police the world for everyone else. Take care of your own damn problems and we'll take care of ours.

Sorry for that tangent. Anyway, as to the picture itself, I like how you, like so many other people in this thread, just assume that whatever the media publishes and spits out to the general public is absolute truth. Although the Dutch currently passed a law saying that it's now considered a hate crime to say anything against Islam, and other European countries might follow suite, so I can certainly understand why you would side with the Palestinians.

Seriously though, I can't think of a single instance where I have yet to defend Israel's actions. This is a matter of self-defense and national security for them. If you think they've done something horribly wrong, I want to know what your opinion is on it, not the opinion shared by a million and one journalists.

I am just so fed up with the whole issue. I have also lived in Northern Ireland.

So my position is one state; two people. Take the whole Palestine and Israel territory and create one state. This area is not big enough for two states so it has to be one state. Put up one parlament. Palestinians choose 50 % of it. The Jews the rest. Divide the government in 50/50 between those two groups. Let them get on with governing the state.

My solution is the same as the Northern Ireland solution. There, we have two persons who for the best part of thirty years tried to kill each other. And I litterary means "tried to kill each other". It does not get more basic and primitive than that. Both has now been placed in the same room as each other and told to run Northern Ireland. So they did that and made a big success out of it. One of them retired due to old age and another one took over. He too had tried to kill that other person for the best part of thirty years. So they drink tea together and rule over 1 million people.

Northern Ireland is now a huge success. In my view; this solution should be exported to the Middle East.  

Windhawk wrote: Heh, from what I know of local conditions down there, it's a drawing that speaks volumes about the distribution of power. Israel controls water supply to Palestina, Israeli soldiers decide whether or not most Palestinians are allowed to get to work - as many work in Israel or Israel-controlled area; the recent admission of Israel in the use of white phosphor in bombarments against civilan areas in Palestine comes to mind. And the somewhat unjust power balance between a professional modern army that can call on the help of the US with the snap of a finger and an underground guerilla movement is an undeniable fact.

Windhawk wrote:

I laughed if you actually think that's true. The Palestinians and Hamas are by no means defenseless, and they started this incident anyway. Actually, they start most if not all of them.