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rushfan4 View Drop Down
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:28
I thought it sounded quite exciting too.  I am not sure if there is an anticipated release date yet or maybe some samples somewhere, but it sounds like this could be a great album.
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Points: 65268 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:16
 ^ sounds exciting!
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 16:05
Raff, Duly noted.  All that I am asking is that they are given consideration.  If the PM team doesn't feel they are prog enough or metal enough at the same time then it is what it is.  If they are rejected for a prog category, as it appears they will be, then I think that the Admins should give it some consideration.  If they don't wish to include them then it is case dropped.
 
Interestingly, based on this new info from Wikipedia for their album which is scheduled for release in 2008, their might be an even stronger argument for their inclusion.  But that will depend on the actual final product.
 
 
In a June 2006 interview with MTV.com, frontman Rob Halford said in regards to the group's upcoming concept album about the legendary 16th century French prophet Nostradamus, "Nostradamus is all about metal, isn't he? He was an alchemist as well as a seer — a person of extraordinary talent. He had an amazing life that was full of trial and tribulation and joy and sorrow. He's a very human character and a world-famous individual. You can take his name and translate it into any language and everybody knows about him, and that's important because we're dealing with a worldwide audience."[17]

In addition to digging new lyrical ground for the band, the album will contain musical elements which might surprise their fans. "It's going to have a lot of depth", Halford said. "There'll be a lot of symphonic elements. We might orchestrate it, without it being overblown. There may be a massive choir at parts and keyboards will be featured more prominently, whereas they've always been in the background before."[
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:49
Scott, I LOVE that album, and I agree (to a point) with the AllMusic guide's statement. However, I would be grateful if you looked at my posts and gave some consideration to my remarks. Such an addition is going to wreak havoc on the forums, unless the Admins decide to crack down on complaints. As I have already stated, the general membership is not ready for a more 'open' approach to prog, and including a band that has such strong connections with a controversial genre such as heavy metal cannot but cause vehement reactions. Now that I am older and wiser, I wouldn't add Iron Maiden again... Unfortunately, you can't force open-mindedness on people.
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:45
AllMusic also labels King Diamond as progressive metal. I don't trust them with genre assignment (especially after labeling Atreyu as "death metal/black metal").
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:30
From AllMusic guide review of Sad Wings of Destiny: Although neither as commercially successful nor as technically flashy as subsequent releases, Sad Wings of Destiny was an important milestone in the eventual development of the progressive metal subgenre, and established a standard of excellence to which Judas Priest would adhere through the remainder of the '70s.
 
And this:
 
There are also two delicate, prog-style ballads, "Dreamer Deceiver" and the piano-based "Epitaph," demonstrating a compelling emotional range.


Edited by rushfan4 - March 15 2008 at 15:33
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:28
Originally posted by Avantgardehead Avantgardehead wrote:

I don't think it would be a good idea to open up the "prog-related related" genre...


lol... I really haven't heard any Judas Priest album, but I've heard them in VH1 Heavy: The Story of Metal... I don't think VH1 showed there prog side, cause I couldn't hear prog there, but I really don't want to get into them, hating metal.... Even though I know about them just like Iron Maiden, Motorhead, Metallica others...
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Points: 1170 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 15:21
The first two albums just sound like Sabbath-worship to me with a few other elements. The names I keep seeing in reviews for these albums are "Black Sabbath" and "Deep Purple" and I definitely hear those influences. I don't hear anything progressive, though. I don't think it would be a good idea to open up the "prog-related related" genre...
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:58
I think that they're all prog, but I am biased in that manner.  But I have seen plenty of posts regarding the various albums thoughout that period saying that they're not prog.  More so with Snakes and Arrows then with Moving Pictures, but the comments are out there.
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:54
^ I'm not familiar with all the Rush albums of that period, but knowing both Moving Pictures and Snakes & Arrows I must say that I think they're prog.
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:52

Mike "If we add them to Prog Metal people would constantly complain about albums like British Steel being not prog."

Sort of like Moving Pictures through Snakes and Arrows for Rush?
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:47
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Agreed.  And I am in absolutely no way suggesting that Judas Priest are more progressive then Genesis.  It was a stupid point to make, but my first post was very specific in saying that Priest are a metal band, but that I think they might be eligible for PA based on their first couple of albums, and yet people still post things regarding their entire career.  I am not saying their entire career they were a prog band.

I don't think it was a stupid point, and I didn't gather from your post that you think that Priest are more progressive than Genesis. I was only trying to explain why people might be more willing to tolerate Genesis' non-prog period than that of Judas Priest.

There are plenty of bands on PA who only released 1 or 2 albums and then broke up and were never heard from again, or their members went on to do non-prog projects.  And they are here. They weren't groundbreaking.  99% of the posters on PA may not have even heard of them.  I guess that what I am saying is that if Judas Priest had stopped making music after Sin After Sin and if based on those 3 albums they would be included on PA, then the fact that they went on to release 20 non-prog albums should have no bearing on the decision of including them.  If it is decided that those 2 or 3 albums are not progressive enough by the power that be, then I might still disagree, but I can accept it.  If the admins don't want to included them in Prog-related, I can accept that.  There are plenty of other bands that deserve mention and attention for inclusion on PA.

The limitation to genre per artist would be an obvious problem, should JP be added as a fully fledged prog band. If we base the decision on their early albums they could for example be added to Heavy Prog, and people would constantly ask why they're not in Prog *Metal*. If we add them to Prog Metal people would constantly complain about albums like British Steel being not prog.
 
Response to BTW:  I would accept the decision and live with it and not go stomping off to my room in a pout.  And also, as you might recall I went out on the line for Phil Collin's inclusion in Prog-related so I know I have to watch my back around here. LOL
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:46
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Agreed. And I am in absolutely no way suggesting that Judas Priest are more progressive then Genesis. It was a stupid point to make, but my first post was very specific in saying that Priest are a metal band, but that I think they might be eligible for PA based on their first couple of albums, and yet people still post things regarding their entire career. I am not saying their entire career they were a prog band.


There are plenty of bands on PA who only released 1 or 2 albums and then broke up and were never heard from again, or their members went on to do non-prog projects. And they are here. They weren't groundbreaking. 99% of the posters on PA may not have even heard of them. I guess that what I am saying is that if Judas Priest had stopped making music after Sin After Sin and if based on those 3 albums they would be included on PA, then the fact that they went on to release 20 non-prog albums should have no bearing on the decision of including them. If it is decided that those 2 or 3 albums are not progressive enough by the power that be, then I might still disagree, but I can accept it. If the admins don't want to included them in Prog-related, I can accept that. There are plenty of other bands that deserve mention and attention for inclusion on PA.


Response to BTW: I would accept the decision and live with it and not go stomping off to my room in a pout. And also, as you might recall I went out on the line for Phil Collin's inclusion in Prog-related so I know I have to watch my back around here. LOL


Yep, quite right with that. There are many other bands named here that just did or made 1 or 2 prog and then lead to their commercial succes with another genre. (the one that they're famous cause, in this case metal)
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:43
Originally posted by micky micky wrote:


as the expert in the genre Mike.. .it is your call to decide IF JP was the blueprint of the genre.. if so ... I would go as far as to say you should include them. Even if they don't match what PM has BECOME.  The site is ..or should be educational as well as informative. 


I know what Mark would say LOL


In my humblest of opinions Judas Priest are not a blueprint for prog metal. The NWoBHM could be seen as a forerunner of what I call "modern metal" - and that label includes both prog and non prog metal. In a direct comparison based on their NWoBHM albums I would say that Iron Maiden influenced the development of prog metal more than Judas Priest did.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:41
Raff.. that is where the genre teams has to stand up and defend .... be the 'experts'.. that they are.  If they are known for something elsewhere.. this is a damn prog website.. what counts is the PROG music..  which is why M@X has the guidelines about if they did prog.. they belong.  This is the archives of prog.. not a career retrospective site like Allmusic
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Points: 66266 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:40

Agreed.  And I am in absolutely no way suggesting that Judas Priest are more progressive then Genesis.  It was a stupid point to make, but my first post was very specific in saying that Priest are a metal band, but that I think they might be eligible for PA based on their first couple of albums, and yet people still post things regarding their entire career.  I am not saying their entire career they were a prog band. 

There are plenty of bands on PA who only released 1 or 2 albums and then broke up and were never heard from again, or their members went on to do non-prog projects.  And they are here. They weren't groundbreaking.  99% of the posters on PA may not have even heard of them.  I guess that what I am saying is that if Judas Priest had stopped making music after Sin After Sin and if based on those 3 albums they would be included on PA, then the fact that they went on to release 20 non-prog albums should have no bearing on the decision of including them.  If it is decided that those 2 or 3 albums are not progressive enough by the power that be, then I might still disagree, but I can accept it.  If the admins don't want to included them in Prog-related, I can accept that.  There are plenty of other bands that deserve mention and attention for inclusion on PA. 
 
Response to BTW:  I would accept the decision and live with it and not go stomping off to my room in a pout.  And also, as you might recall I went out on the line for Phil Collin's inclusion in Prog-related so I know I have to watch my back around here. LOL
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Points: 24429 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:37
The thing is, far too many people stop at the NAME, without even bothering to wonder why a band or artist was added. We still have members who haven't understood (or pretend not to understand) what Proto-Prog or Prog-Related mean, and complain endlessly about Iron Maiden or The Doors being here, as if we had put them in Symphonic Prog together with Genesis and Yes. Since it seems to be impossible to make people see reason, and every controversial addition tears the forum apart, I have become very sceptical about the whole idea of adding bands who, while influential on the development of some prog subgenres, are too well-known for something else.
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Points: 46833 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:32
 
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:

Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I seriously don't want to go here because I would like to keep this discussion friendly, but we have all heard the same Genesis argument.  Genesis is the blueprint for Adult Contemporary Pop.  Should they be excluded from the Archives because of that?  And please, I am absolutely not suggesting Genesis shouldn't be in PA, because obviously they are one of the founding bands of prog, and belong here. 


Well, there is a big difference between Genesis and Judas Priest in that regard: The first albums of Judas Priest were probably never regarded as Prog Rock or received much attention from the prog community back when they were released - the early Genesis albums on the other hand became blueprints of the genre. So I think that specifically for bands which only released one or two progressive albums in their career and then turned away from prog it's important to see how important/relevant the prog albums are - either in the scope of the artist discography or their genre.

BTW: If they don't get added ... don't be too sad, I think that most of us long time members have a band which we suggested and which got turned down. For me it was Metallica, and I accepted M@x's decision.


as the expert in the genre Mike.. .it is your call to decide IF JP was the blueprint of the genre.. if so ... I would go as far as to say you should include them. Even if they don't match what PM has BECOME.  The site is ..or should be educational as well as informative. 


I know what Mark would say LOL


Edited by micky - March 15 2008 at 12:33
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:28
Originally posted by MikeEnRegalia MikeEnRegalia wrote:



Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I seriously don't want to go here because I would like to keep this discussion friendly, but we have all heard the same Genesis argument. Genesis is the blueprint for Adult Contemporary Pop. Should they be excluded from the Archives because of that? And please, I am absolutely not suggesting Genesis shouldn't be in PA, because obviously they are one of the founding bands of prog, and belong here.
Well, there is a big difference between Genesis and Judas Priest in that regard: The first albums of Judas Priest were probably never regarded as Prog Rock or received much attention from the prog community back when they were released - the early Genesis albums on the other hand became blueprints of the genre. So I think that specifically for bands which only released one or two progressive albums in their career and then turned away from prog it's important to see how important/relevant the prog albums are - either in the scope of the artist discography or their genre.BTW: If they don't get added ... don't be too sad, I think that most of us long time members have a band which we suggested and which got turned down. For me it was Metallica, and I accepted M@x's decision.


Agreed! ... It happened to me with CSNY ...And I accepted all of collabs decisions..
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Points: 21206 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 15 2008 at 12:24
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

I seriously don't want to go here because I would like to keep this discussion friendly, but we have all heard the same Genesis argument.  Genesis is the blueprint for Adult Contemporary Pop.  Should they be excluded from the Archives because of that?  And please, I am absolutely not suggesting Genesis shouldn't be in PA, because obviously they are one of the founding bands of prog, and belong here. 


Well, there is a big difference between Genesis and Judas Priest in that regard: The first albums of Judas Priest were probably never regarded as Prog Rock or received much attention from the prog community back when they were released - the early Genesis albums on the other hand became blueprints of the genre. So I think that specifically for bands which only released one or two progressive albums in their career and then turned away from prog it's important to see how important/relevant the prog albums are - either in the scope of the artist discography or their genre.

BTW: If they don't get added ... don't be too sad, I think that most of us long time members have a band which we suggested and which got turned down. For me it was Metallica, and I accepted M@x's decision.


Edited by MikeEnRegalia - March 15 2008 at 12:24
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