Author |
Topic Search Topic Options
|
darkmatter
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 23 2006
Location: New Jersey
Status: Offline
Points: 2760
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 12:00 |
darqdean wrote:
I'm amazed to think that so many people believe that bands sit down and write filler, or deliberately load-up an album with worthless, throw away, second-rate songs just to make it longer. That's such a bizzare attitude, sure, Top-40 one-hit wonders produced by Simon Cowell would probably do that since most of their sales are singles-based and albums are of secondary importance, but no one in the album-based Prog world would do that, it doesn't make sense.
|
Agreed, I personally don't like seeing people using the word filler because it would be, as you said, loading an album with pointless tracks. This doesn't make any sense to me because the artist obviously had some reason to put that track on an album (that reason NOT being to take up space, which is stupid). If a track is meant to be on an album, it certainly can't be "filler" (meaning its only purpose is to take up space), can it?
|
|
rushfan4
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 22 2007
Location: Michigan, U.S.
Status: Online
Points: 66542
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 11:15 |
Personally, I am in the "more music for my buck" the better faction. In most instances what is released is either pretty high quality or at the very least serves a purpose. A song might suck but they were trying to experiment with a new sound. Or more likely, if we don't include at least one song written and sung by the bass player or drummer they will be unhappy and make our lives miserable so here it is.
I think that there are numerous instances in the vinyl era where a band released their 40 minute albums, and then released the singles with previously unreleased tracks that didn't make it on to the album. A long list of critics would line up to suggest that the unreleased track should have been included and track 1, 2, 3, or 4 should have been omitted. But when you ask the artist why this wasn't done they will tell you that tracks 1, 2, 3, or 4 were more in line with the sound or the atmosphere they were going for. With an 80 minute album it is more likely that the previously unreleased song will be included. Obviously, not all the time, because there are still instances where bands go in to the studio with more than 80 minutes or even 160 minutes worth of material, so there is still music that gets omitted and saved for future albums or to appear as that 1 previously unreleased track on a greatest hits or box set package that makes it necessary for a completionist to purchase that compilation package.
Edited by rushfan4 - November 23 2007 at 11:16
|
|
|
el böthy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 27 2005
Location: Argentina
Status: Offline
Points: 6336
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 10:57 |
I have come to the conclusion that the only +70 minutes albums that work are the ones that are, sort to speak, experiences more than just music. For example: Lateralus. Lateralus is one of the longest albums (itīs almost 80 minutes), but the music in itīs whole creates this sort of atmosphere that works great from start to finish. Other example is Sleepytime Gorilla Museumīs Of natural history. Although 71 minutes long, itīs still a lot. But, again, itīs not just music, itīs almost a da da theater play, and it works! But, this are the exceptions! Albums like the ones form Dream Theater are just too long. And, lets face it, there is always a bad, or two, songs in their album, they would work much, much better without them!
|
"You want me to play what, Robert?"
|
|
Slartibartfast
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam
Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 09:26 |
The T wrote:
Yes. I am.
|
You should try Steve Roach's Darkest Before Dawn or Philip Glass's Music With Changing Parts. Those would really drive you up the wall.
|
Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
|
|
Norbert
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 20 2005
Location: Hungary
Status: Offline
Points: 2506
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 09:22 |
Not tired of that 77 minute album?
Actually it really depends on the album, and nobody is obliged to listen to each album in one sitting. I hardly ever listen to both discs of The Lamb, once the first and after some break the second.
|
|
MoreBarlow
Forum Newbie
Joined: November 23 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 12
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 09:22 |
Depending on the album, I may be able to tolerate a little extra length... but something also found in vinyl albums, naturally, is 2 sides per album-- maybe partially what's so unlikeable is that there's no "break", or naturally ending/beginning whatever have you, between the 2 parts of a really long album.
|
|
Bob Greece
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 1823
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 04:27 |
I agree. About 40 minutes is right for an album - I grew up listening to LPs.
Mind you - in these days of MP3s, I expect that fewer people are listening to albums from beginning to end any more.
|
|
|
Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout
Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 04:24 |
I'm amazed to think that so many people believe that bands sit down and write filler, or deliberately load-up an album with worthless, throw away, second-rate songs just to make it longer. That's such a bizzare attitude, sure, Top-40 one-hit wonders produced by Simon Cowell would probably do that since most of their sales are singles-based and albums are of secondary importance, but no one in the album-based Prog world would do that, it doesn't make sense.
|
What?
|
|
laplace
Prog Reviewer
Joined: October 06 2005
Location: popupControl();
Status: Offline
Points: 7606
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 04:15 |
Musicians have plenty of time to write their first batch of songs so a debut CD packed full is interesting to me. Any follow-up that attempts to span an hour and a quarter is a lost cause and very avoidable - bands are often lying to themselves at this point, or else hoping that people will be satisfied with their winnowed-out cuts from the first album.
(yes, I know _your_ favourite modern prog band has a prodigious output but I don't like them one bit.) ;)
on the other hand I love to make compilations, and this is where long CDs packed with filler shine - all the chaff and packaging has to be protecting something of value, no matter how small.
|
|
Terra Australis
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 03 2006
Location: Australia
Status: Offline
Points: 809
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 04:09 |
What are you going to think when we consistently get albums that are 10 hours long because the new medium allows for it?
|
|
|
ghost_of_morphy
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 08 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2755
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 03:51 |
The T wrote:
Yes. I am.
Really, there was a time when you could expect to listen to your newly purchased prog masterpiece (or that you expected it to be a masterpiece) without having to set your agenda, to alter your whole day, to forget about the rest of mankind for almost 80 minutes! The problem is, while there are a lot of magnificent 79 minute albums, most of them are harmed by the length. It's not the rule that artists manage to put out 80 minutes of pure quality, but an exception.
I know the needs for artistic expression demand more.. time... or resources.. or whatever. But sometimes it's just pretentiousness of artists who really think all they write is good. Yes, even Roine Stolt sometimes suffers from this (even though I love his music so much that I happen to enjoy his elephantistic albums ).... But what about the times when albums lasted 40-50 minutes? What about some balance? Some equilibrium? Not EVERYHTING has to be 80 minutes long!
|
Frankly, I think there was more filler back in the Vinyl Age.
|
|
clarke2001
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: June 14 2006
Location: Croatia
Status: Offline
Points: 4160
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 03:06 |
Hm...something just came up my mind...
If a modern artist wants to publish an album 80 mins long, it's most likely it will contain (a few) fillers. If the same artist is restricted with the vinyl limitations, (s)he will have to pick better tracks and kick out fillers, right?
Well...
If one really wants to publish an hour+ of music, why they don't just pick the best tunes, 40-50 mins long, making a masterpiece concept and the rest pile at the end as bonus tracks?? For me, bonus tracks are not the integral part of the album but if someone wants to listen, they're here, anyway.
Edited by clarke2001 - November 23 2007 at 03:06
|
|
|
ClassicRocker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 02 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 894
|
Posted: November 23 2007 at 00:44 |
endlessepic wrote:
However, if ELP had made a 79 minute album in between Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery I think I would enjoy every second.
|
Most likely it would have been extremely enjoyable.. imagine a TFTO-style album that's essentially Tarkus X 4! (Or maybe that album would just have a mix of the tracks from Works Vol. I & II ! )
|
|
|
emkogceo
Forum Groupie
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 70
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 22:51 |
This is an interesting topic. On one hand, it can seem pretentious if a band puts 80 minutes on an album- it's as if they're saying "we have all of this great music that's worth releasing." But today, it can seem just as pretentious to release a 40-minute album- it's like saying "you album buyers should be happy with just 40 minutes of our wonderful material."
Of course another important thing is how good the music actually is, but this is a lot more subjective than people in the 79-minute-album debate often realize. People always seem to say, for example, that The Lamb would have been a great single album but is a weak double album. But when pressed on what would be cut, everyone has different opinions. If Foxtrot and SEBTP had come out together as a double album, I'm sure people would have said the same thing. Even 40-50 minute albums have their weak points, but they don't feel as much like "filler" since they're on shorter albums.
10 years ago, I preferred buying longer albums, but since there's so much more great music so easily available now, I think artists sort of owe it to people to trim their albums a little bit so that the listener doesn't have to devote 80 minutes of time to an album to give it a fair evaluation.
Of course, this is coming from someone who is about to release a 70-minute album, so I'm not exactly practicing what I preach.
|
www.emkog.com
|
|
andu
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 27 2006
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
Points: 3089
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 19:11 |
If I can't sit through a whole album and have a nice experience then it's not worth it, for me of course.
|
|
progismylife
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2006
Location: ibreathehelium
Status: Offline
Points: 15535
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 18:24 |
I don't think 80 minute long albums are that bad. Like KingCrimson776 said, you don't have to sit through the whole album in one listen.
I bought Neal Morse - Sola Scriptura awhile ago. I was luckily able to get a couple of listens to it uninterrupted. Aside from those instances where I have lots of free time, I usual only listen to it in parts (in this case song by song). Mostly I get used to the album by playing it while working at my desk or other lengthy activities that require long hours of sitting. and doing work. I end up listening to the good parts and drowning out filler.
And I also prefer some short albums as well. I'd take 30-50 and 60+
|
|
MajesterX
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 30 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 513
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 14:46 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
It's not like you have to sit through the whole album in one sitting, it's just more music |
For many people, including me, albums are an experience and they MUST be listened in one sitting. If albums as we know them generally carry a certain feeling or concept, it's extremely difficult to create them in this manner without it getting old. I'd rather get 40 minutes from a band every 2 years than 80 minutes every 2 years. Listening involves a listener's interpretation of the meaning of me music, and when you make albums that are too long to follow, you cut this process short of what it could be.
|
|
|
cacha71
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 31 2007
Location: Planet Earth
Status: Offline
Points: 326
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 14:41 |
I think that the issue is highly subjective but I agree that some astists do overdo the length just for the sake of it. However, not really that many do - I can't say that I have too many albums exceding 60 minutes and even fewer that I am bored with.
I agree with one of the previous posts, though, which points out that vinyls were often restrictive and left you wanting more. I'm sure there were often times when artists wished they had just that five minutes extra space! It must be pointed out that artists then always had the option of making a double album (in which case they had to come up with another 40 minutes of equally inspired material to fill the second record!), whereas now there is more flexibility.
Having said all this, 80 minutes is an awful long time to hold the attention of the audience and any artist who manages to do this is truly great!
|
http://www.last.fm/group/Progressive+Folk
|
|
Astrodomine
Forum Senior Member
Joined: March 06 2007
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 182
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 13:23 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
It's not like you have to sit through the whole album in one sitting, it's just more music |
True
|
|
crimhead
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member
Joined: October 10 2006
Location: Missouri
Status: Offline
Points: 19236
|
Posted: November 22 2007 at 13:15 |
I think that when it's a conceptual album 80+ minutes work. Lamb lies down, The Wall,Tommy and Quadaphenia those are all great albums.
|
|
Donate monthly and keep PA fast-loading and ad-free forever.