Winston Churchill was black |
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Dreamer
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 13 2005 Location: Amsterdam Status: Offline Points: 297 |
Posted: September 05 2006 at 08:32 | |
There are people in my class who don't know the difference between left and right wing... They're almost at a voting age, and they're complete ignorants! It's actually embarassing to hear them asking the teacher to explain..
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chopper
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 13 2005 Location: Essex, UK Status: Offline Points: 20030 |
Posted: September 04 2006 at 08:44 | |
I can understand people not learning about Churchill at school (as far as I remember I only did up to WWI at my school) but to get to adulthood (a) not knowing that Churchill is our most famous PM and (b) believing the US has had a black president called Winston Churchill just beggars belief. Not to mention the fact that she thought he was black because his statue was black!
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: September 04 2006 at 07:45 | |
There isn't a great deal I can add here which hasn't already been covered eloquently by Peter & James, particularly regarding the lack of books (yes - proper physical paper & ink books) actually being read these days.
In my opinion, one quality missing in a large proportion of modern youth is respect; both for others, and increasingly for oneself. This may or may not be the case, but I feel respect can be directly linked to the lack of discipline at school and, more importantly, at home - I am not referring here to physical discipline such as corporal punishment but instilling the qualities of self control & common courtesy; these two qualities lead (in my humble opinion) to respect, both for oneself and for others. Remember - if you don't respect yourself, you cannot expect others to respect you - long ago, some bearded proto-hippy said we should treat others as we'd like to be treated ourselves - not a bad philosophy, eh? Mind you, they did nail the poor bugger to a tree for saying it, though |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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Forgotten Son
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 13 2005 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1356 |
Posted: September 04 2006 at 00:51 | |
To be frank, I doubt that generally people have become more stupid or ignorant. As I see it there's always been a ratio of knowledgable to ignorant people and this has remained constant, but because of increasing populations and an increasingly globalised media we are exposed to more ignorance. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been an increase in intelligent, knowedgable people as well, though.
I think every generation thinks the younger one shows declining morals, intelligence etc. |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 23:14 | |
I think you'll find I did! Look on the first page. |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 22:38 | |
Well, I'm not really anti-democratic, or anti capitalist (though I'm more socialist than many of our American friends might like), but the system certainly has its evils. (I think it was it Churchill that said "democracy is a terrible system, but it's the best one we have.") Capitalism needs the working, ignorant, unprotesting poor (much like tobacco companies need addicts, oil companies need vans and SUVs, and drug companies need disease -- there is mega $$$ in treating cancer and AIDS, but obviously much less in permanently eradicating them), and they grease the wheels of the military-industrial war machine, too.
To quote (VDGG) Peter Hammill's Lemmings:
Yes, I know it's
out of control, out of control: greasy machinery slides on the rails, young minds and bodies on steel spokes impaled. Cogs tearing bones, cogs tearing bones; iron-throated monsters are forcing the screams, mind and machinery box-press the dreams.
'Twas ever thus, at least since Caesar provided "bread and circuses" to endear himself to the masses. Billy Bragg sings:
"You keep buying these things but you don't need them
But as long as you're comfortable it feels like freedom My American friends don't know what to do But they'll wait a long time for a Beverley Hills coup War! What is it good for It's good for business" ("North Sea Bubble")
Who was in Tianamen Square, pushing for rights and change? University students -- the educated, who had learned of the outside world, history, and philosophy. Who was used to scatter, squash and slaughter those students? A peasant army -- uneducated former farm boys and urban poor from the outer provinces.
Students in France... Teachers in Mexico.... the informed are dangerous to the staus quo!
Opressive power structures fear an educated, informed population -- with good reason.
Change (living wages, health care, etc) is not good for the shareholders and the "bottom line."
As Doctor Martin Luther King Jr knew only too well, rights, freedoms and priviledges are not simply given to anyone -- they are painfully earned through blood, suffering and sacrifice. Corporations and governments (much the same people) change how they do business (salads at MacDonald's, tuna that does not lead to the needless slaughter of dolphins, unbleached paper towels, paper from hemp, etc.) only when an educated population -- their customers -- demand, with their dollars, that they do so. (Do you think the popularity of "Supersize Me" had nothing to do with the sudden appearance of low-fat menu choices at Ronald MacDonald land?) We make the change happen when we stop silently (like placid, dumb sheep, or lemmings) swallowing their lies, buying their poisons, or voting for their bloated, corrupt, oil and weapons company-owning politicians.
In the meantime, however, the more people who say "I don't wanna know" or "it doesn't affect me" or "the school didn't teach me right," or "there's nothing I can do" the better THEY like it! Why listen to the news when you can listen to your MP3 player, and spend all day It is said that "ignorance is bliss" -- but that bliss is not reserved for the ignorant, but for those with a vested interest in perpetuating mass ignorance.
Stupidity kills.
Survivor. American Idol. "Reality" TV. Bigger cars. Win a makeover. Lottery tickets. Cheaper gas for the long weekend....
Heads in the sand = skulls in the desert sand.
Same old "bread and circuses" -- too bad for the gladiators.... Edited by Peter Rideout - September 04 2006 at 11:47 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Borealis
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 06 2005 Location: Neutral Zone Status: Offline Points: 599 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 20:53 | |
^ Velvet Room posters haven't come here yet. Do they feel concerned, or it's too boring ?...
we have produced a generation that expects endless entertainment, and instant gratification via shallow materialism and fashion.
Right on, Peter. What I am the most affraid is not the lack of interest in history (of course, there's a minimum requiered! Nothing in the example posted above should be accepted! You know, not everyone should or has interest in that...), its more about no desire of evolving, growing up spiritually or intellectually. Some said all they can talk about is beer, girl, rock'n'roll and ect... NO, they can't even do that! They says absolutely abything constructive, just throw up a couple of easy cliché all the time and share them with people that think the same too! It's just the 'I get a work, fund a familly, I die' thing. That's ALL.
In Québec's CEJEP (two-three year long school we usually enter at 17), There's is Philosophy class. We are one of the few place in the world that have the oppotunity of having philosophy classes at this low age. And I love those classes! But well, I am of the the very few that doesn't hate it! That make me crazy of seeing them... No one listen, they all are tired and frustrated and fix the clock so the class end. And I won't says what I hear from them... so stupid...
But, isn't this what the governement wants? Dumb workers that keeps their machines running without asking a question, or wanting an answer?
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Vive le Québec libre!...
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:53 | |
You just wrote it.
Or you could just print out all 4,391,686,284 pages of the collected insights, deep thoughts, witty repartee and stimulating intellectual exchanges of the Velvet Room....
(Ah, the art of modern conversation and correspondence!)
cya Edited by Peter Rideout - September 03 2006 at 15:55 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:44 | |
"The only thing the world needs is for each child to grow up in happiness." -- Chief Dan George
You need a license to have a dog....
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:36 | |
Right on, Geck0!
Parents are the most important "teachers" (they give us our core morals, self esteem and attitudes), and you (and your spouse) are by far the most important role model your child will ever have. Don't expect your child's school teachers to teach your child right from wrong -- morality is ingrained (or not) in the critical first few years of life.
And yes, being "educated," informed or wise need not have anything to do with formal schooling.
(Though obviously, in this material world, formal & post-secondary education is of vast -- and increasing -- importance, and school can impart valuable knowledge and insight, and hone many -- pre-existing -- aspects of your personality. Sadly, for some, it may also be the first place they encounter a positive, supportive role model.
I can respect and admire people from all walks of life -- from the person who fixes my car, the surgeon who saves my life, to the musician who adds poetry and beauty to my world. Hard-won ability, experience and wisdom -- from whatever source -- merits respect.
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:28 | |
considering Bill Bryson's book (a short history of nearly everything) I am waiting for a follow-up. "A comprehensive history of nearly nothing"
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19535 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 15:01 | |
One of the few advantages of living in a third world country is that we know we are not the center of the world so we study everything on the contrary USA knows they are the cebnter of the world so their schools only worry about their history and geography, the rest of the world doesn't matters.
You can go to a school in a "Pueblo Joven" (Young Towns is a fancy name for ghettos) and every kid will know at least all the countries of America, Europe and Africa (Well since the fall of the USSR Government so many countries have been created that I doubt even the teachers know all), we study Universal Story and we know about the Egyptians, Roman Empire, the Middle Age and even about the cuban misssile crisis (I reached Watergate because I ended school in 1980).
In private schools it's even better, I was forced to study logics, Philosophy and Ethics, Peruvian History, Peruvian and Universal Literature and even Religion, of course this doesn't help too much in a poor country because many doctors and lawyers are driving cabs because there is not enough work but at least people leaves school with a general idea of the world.
When I studied in USA I thought it would be much more challenging but honestly it was the contrary, except in Math which is a bit more advanced because our math teachers suck (they only care and boast about the natural talents and don't worry about simple mortals as us that passed Maths with a bt of luck and a 12 or 11 grade -Our grade system goes from 0 to 20-).
Iván
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 14:03 | |
Peter:
Again, I wholeheartedly agree with your wise words. When growing up, my parents never swore or said bad things about people. Even now they do not swear and I most certainly have never sworn in front of them. It may sound strange to people, but I seriously believe it helped my own personal upbringing. I used to also read Janet and John (or was it Peter and Jane?) books when I was first beginning my intrepid quest of learning to read. I believe (although I cannot remember) that my parents also read to me as a toddler. My parents are working class and my family have never been materialistic in any way and they still do not crave the latest gadgets and mindless rubbish that we get forced on us in the media. They also never went to University or College, yet both of my parents can read and write and are intelligent individuals. They have good morals and that is what they ingrained into me, money is not an issue, University education is not an issue either. Good parents are the most important aspect for new borns through to the day you leave this mortal coil. Edited by Geck0 - September 03 2006 at 15:50 |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:49 | |
Thanks Guigo -- that book looks great!
I will order one for my kids and I!
BTW, the Bryson book is very funny, as well, and it covers the origins of the earth and life, geology, science, astronomy, histories of pioneering scientists, mathematicians, etc -- nearly everything, as the title says! It's really terrific, and would appeal to just about anyone (that is Bryson's major talent -- he can make you read, laugh, and care about stuff you may have thought you'd never grasp, or be interested in).
A must read!
Edited by Peter Rideout - September 03 2006 at 13:50 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Atkingani
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: October 21 2005 Location: Terra Brasilis Status: Offline Points: 12288 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:18 | |
And for those fearing Mathematics, I recommend to start here (adults & children):
"The Man Who Counted", what a book!!!
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Guigo
~~~~~~ |
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Peter
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 31 2004 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 9669 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 13:03 | |
Yes, FF, extra (beyond what the school requires) reading is essential. Bravo!
As I stressed, education and a basic knowledge of history and the world are not just acquired in school. (In prior generations, the grandparents were usually an integral and respected part of the family, so their direct knowledge of the past, and their hard-earned wisdom could be passed on. Families talked.) Still, there is no substitute for an at-home exposure to a wide variety of reading material, and the necessary love of books has to be ingrained, AT HOME, prior to entry into kindergarten. Small children -- I would start at 2-3 months -- should be read to daily. Also, real parent-child conversation about the world, and how we got where we are, is fundamental. Obviously, having educated (not just formally educated) parents helps in a huge way -- if the parent is educated, inquiring and knowledgeable (i.e., values knowledge), the child will likely become so as well. The family, and LIFE itself is a "classroom," and you don't leave it until you die. Schools can't teach everything (least of all fundamental morals and attitudes), and that essential love of reading and thirst for knowledge has to be ingrained AT HOME. The child who was never (or rarely) read to prior to kindergarten will almost certainly never catch up, and will be doomed to a life of academic mediocrity, failure, ignorance of their world, and the past that shaped it, and continues to shape it. With a stunted, limited vocabulary come limited thought processes, insufficient problem-solving skills, and an inability to really, effectively communicate. With poor communication comes poor relationships (divorce, single parenthood, etc.), and from poor relationships come dysfunctional children -- the vicious cycle perpetuates itself. However, just because someone was raised in a non-educational, non-communicative environment does not mean he or she is necessarily doomed to failure and the inability to have a working relationship (not just spousal relationships either -- life is made of relationships, of many kinds). It is tough, requires hard work and willpower, but one can choose to reject perpetual victim hood, and raise oneself up, to break the cycle. (That's the field I work in, and yes, doctors do come from ghettos too! Sometimes even one good role model, mentor or inspiration -- it could be a person, a book, a philosophy, a religion, etc. -- can make the difference, and tip the balance.) If you are content with welfare, blaming your parents and teachers, disrespecting all authority and age-won wisdom and mental achievement (and disrespecting YOURSELF) however, don't expect your children to be any different. They learn the attitudes and morals they see modeled at home, and this happens by age four, and prior to entry into the school system. If I do well in a game of Trivial Pursuit, 95% of my success is NOT due to my having done well in school, or even having gone to university (as a disgruntled opponent once maintained). No, my breadth of knowledge beyond my immediate vocation and first-hand experience comes from a life of reading, and learning, very early on, that knowledge is valuable, "power," attractive, and even "cool." It's good to be able to speak well and with some insight on a wide range of topics, and people notice this. Those who disrespect knowledge and the well-spoken disrespect themselves. Being around the educated or thoughtful makes them uncomfortable (they see themselves as distinctly lacking, in comparison to the other, and this forced self-knowledge is unwelcome, and causes pain), so they lash out, say "I don't wanna know" or "it's irrelevant to me" or "you think too much." (I imagine they have trouble looking themselves in the eye when they shave, or apply their makeup.) Do you call policemen "pigs" in front of your kids, curse and swear in front of them, tell them "don't take any sh*t from your teachers" (someone told me that's what she tells her kids), and call the educated "pencil pushers?" Do you tell yourself that all that educated people know is books, that they don't know sh*t about "life," or the "streets," that what they know "don't matter?" (Yes, they have lived, loved, experienced pain and -- temporary -- failure too. You don't know their past, and education is not just "handed' to someone, or gained in school.) If you never try, you'll certainly never succeed. True, lasting happiness with yourself (and the respect of others you respect) does not come from a bigger paycheck, a flashy car, big biceps, a boob job, the latest computer toys, another beer, a big CD collection, or even a high forum post count. It comes from knowing that you've pushed yourself to your potential (whatever that is -- it could be as a mechanic, carpenter, minister, teacher or fisherman), and knowing that whatever you choose to do, you choose to do it well -- or not at all. At least you tried! Have you subscribed to National Geographic (etc.) yet? Are there any maps on your rec room wall? Any books beside all those CDs and DVDs? Did you read a book (or five) this summer? Did you read to your toddler last night? Sorry to have written so much, but this is a subject very near and dear to my heart -- I genuinely care. Perhaps, in some small way, I will have helped or inspired someone. This is the hope that keeps me going. Education is the only answer to the world's woes -- or so I firmly believe. We have to start using those great big brains we have.
P.S: Here's a very good book, BTW -- it's quite readable, endlessly intriguing, and will teach you a heck of a lot, and all while entertaining you:
Edited by Peter Rideout - September 03 2006 at 13:38 |
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Tony R
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: July 16 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 11979 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 09:18 | |
Anyone who believes that the concerns about the American Education System are exagerated should read this thread: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28070&KW= I am not blaming Brian,because nobody has ever explained to him why history is important.... |
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darksinger
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 29 2006 Location: Durham, NC Status: Offline Points: 1091 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 08:14 | |
you did not learn much on ww1 or ww2 and you are still better off than most kids over here. it's not the teachers so much as it is the utter lack of responsibility and accountibility that children have.
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Falling Flower
Forum Senior Member Joined: June 14 2006 Location: Belgium Status: Offline Points: 1079 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 07:59 | |
I never heard a history teacher of me mention Winston Churchill in class. In fact I never even learned alot about WW1 or WW2 in school.
My history teacher actually was suprised that I mentioned Churchill in a paper called "My idols in history" I had to do because I forgot my history book and was just reading in class.
I think I actually learned more that day by not paying attention and reading about the psychology of human cruelty then I would've learned if I did pay attention
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Tool makes the butterflies in my tumybox go woooooooosh |
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VanderGraafKommandöh
Prog Reviewer Joined: July 04 2005 Location: Malaria Status: Offline Points: 89372 |
Posted: September 03 2006 at 00:22 | |
Is that Fenwick pronounced Fen Wick or Fennick?
It makes a difference you know! |
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