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plodder
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 19 2004
Status: Offline
Points: 255
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:31 |
More prog genres, just what the world needs. Like more lawyers.
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ANDREW
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 21 2005
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 3064
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:24 |
Yes, Dark-Prog / Hard-Prog.
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earlyprog
Collaborator
Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams
Joined: March 05 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 2134
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:23 |
I'm unsure until someone convince me of the need for this. How many albums do you expect in this new category? if under 10 then perhaps it's not really worth the energy.
In addition, it wil further dilute this site by shifting the focus away from the truly progressive artists.
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Tricalix
Forum Newbie
Joined: June 21 2006
Location: Netherlands
Status: Offline
Points: 30
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 08:22 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.) |
Exactly. Let's talk about how good music is, and not how prog it is. Cause I don't see the sense of doing that
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I hate signatures.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:38 |
[QUOTE=video vertigo]I think the idea is good, but should these bands be allowed into the top albums? I'm already unhappy about the beatles in our top 100, who's next?
Yeah I don't like the Beatles there either, good point.
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horza
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 31 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 2530
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:09 |
Sounds like a good idea to me.
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Originally posted by darkshade:
Calling Mike Portnoy a bad drummer is like calling Stephen Hawking an idiot.
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video vertigo
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 17 2004
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 1930
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 04:03 |
I think the idea is good, but should these bands be allowed into the top albums? I'm already unhappy about the beatles in our top 100, who's next? I like that this site is growing and more info about more types of music are becoming apart of PA, but I'm here for prog 99.98% of the time.
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"The rock and roll business is pretty absurd, but the world of serious music is much worse." - Zappa
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 03:13 |
Ivan,Genesis is my favourite prog band, but I think that post Duke albums need to be there because there are some prog-related material on them, also stuff like 3 sides live has some classic tracks like the Musical box on it.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - July 08 2006 at 03:22
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 03:04 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Ivan Melgar, the difference with groups like genesis is that their foundations are prog, the beatles wern't, also even their more commercial albums were prog related eg Dominoes, Second Home by the sea. That is the difference Yes and Genesis are prog bands the Beatles wern't. This is what I'm saying; non prog bands/artists like the Beatles and Miles Davis has some prog albums, put them and exclude their non prog because its irrelevent, Genesis and Yes pop music has relevance to many prog fans although usually in the more negative area and againthere are still prog - related material in it. |
I get your point, The Beatles are not mainly Prog (Except SPLHCB and Abbey Road) and Genesis is the best Prog band ever (That's what I honestly believe).
But I do believe their albums after Duke should be deleted.
I like the idea, as i said I see no reasoon why Their Satanic Majesties Request is not here, but the risk of some inadequate additions that would attempt against the nature and essense of this site is too high.
Iván
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 02:43 |
Ivan Melgar, the difference with groups like genesis is that their foundations are prog, the beatles wern't, also even their more commercial albums were prog related eg Dominoes, Second Home by the sea. That is the difference Yes and Genesis are prog bands the Beatles wern't. This is what I'm saying; non prog bands/artists like the Beatles and Miles Davis has some prog albums, put them and exclude their non prog because its irrelevent, Genesis and Yes pop music has relevance to many prog fans although usually in the more negative area and againthere are still prog - related material in it.
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theBox
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 29 2005
Location: Greece
Status: Offline
Points: 427
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 02:37 |
Brilliant Idea Cheesecakemouse!
I voted yes!
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 01:45 |
Cheesecakemouse wrote:
Well I think we still just as many problems now I don't think prog related is perfect,
Neither do I, buit it's good enough.
Also Art Rock section has its problems - yes King Crimson belongs there but I don't think Van Der Graff Generator does etc so there are still disputes,
My team sent with unimous votes VDGG there, because it has many of many genres.
I still think a strict criteria still should apply, infact I think It'll improve everything a lot we can dump all the Beatles early stuff, they certainly don't belong on this site.
Also Genesis lets say after Duke would be great, but it's an opemn door that I don't totally like.
Its down to the question is this particular album prog? if it is it belongs here if not it doesn't. I'm not talking about AOR stuff like Greendays latest album, I'm talking about pure prog here.
You, me and some other members of course will do their bestr, but already there's people talking about Progressive Rap or Hip Hop every week, people asking to add Meatloaf (One of my favorite bands but not Prog).
When there's an open door, people abuuse, that's a fact, the additions were oipened for a while to anybody and it was a disaster, so it had to be closed again.
Its basically kicking out all the dead wait that isn't prog on this website like the non prog Styx albums? while having classic prog albums that are here.
The policy ofhis site is not to remove bands once they are inside and less when there are revoiews, something with what I agree.
If it's done, it has to be very limited, not everybody should be allowed to add their favorite album.
Iván |
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:50 |
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog?
I would love to add Their Satanic Majesties Request (Rolling Stones) as Psychedelic but not so sure how easy will it be to manage albums by absolutely non proog bands.
We have people already asking why is STYX or Be Bop´Deluxe here, imagine if somebody would believe some Earth Wind & Fire or Progressive House album should be added.
The idea is good, but has it's problems.
Iván |
Well I think we still just as many problems now I don't think prog related is perfect, also Art Rock section has its problems - yes King Crimson belongs there but I don't think Van Der Graff Generator does etc so there are still disputes, the fact that Bitches Brew by Miles Davis on this site is also a problem, I still think a strict criteria still should apply, infact I think It'll improve everything a lot we can dump all the Beatles early stuff, they certainly don't belong on this site. Its down to the question is this particular album prog? if it is it belongs here if not it doesn't. I'm not talking about AOR stuff like Greendays latest album, I'm talking about pure prog here. Its basically kicking out all the dead wait that isn't prog on this website like the non prog Styx albums? while having classic prog albums that are here.
Edited by Cheesecakemouse - July 08 2006 at 00:51
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: April 27 2004
Location: Peru
Status: Offline
Points: 19557
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:43 |
The big question...Who decides which albums are really Prog?
I would love to add Their Satanic Majesties Request (Rolling Stones) as Psychedelic but not so sure how easy will it be to manage albums by absolutely non proog bands.
We have people already asking why is STYX or Be Bop´Deluxe here, imagine if somebody would believe some Earth Wind & Fire or Progressive House album should be added.
The idea is good, but has it's problems.
Iván
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:36 |
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:24 |
robertplantowns wrote:
I for one don't understand the obsession with finding out ultimately who's "truly prog" and who's not. It really doesn't matter and it would be a waste of time on this site. Also, isn't the whole point of proto-prog and prog-related categories is that they're NOT prog to begin with, so why should we be verifying their proginess when by the fact that they're in those categories it has already been established? Seems nonsensical to me. It seriously doesn't matter to me whether a band is labeled as prog, if you want to listen to the most innovative and proggy band, that's your choice, and if you want to listen to a band that's barely proggy at al, that's fine too. I think artists should be labeled by what the majority of their output is considered, and let the reviews speak for themselves! I also think this would take a disincentive out of reviews where people speak what they truly feel about the album and its "prog worthiness" rather than simply hitting a button to vote on a PROG FROM 1-10 scale. Maybe I'm the only one in here but this idea sounds ridiculous to me. I VOTE NO |
I consider prog by the albums more than the band, thats the problem if we rely on prog related and proto it leaves many questions unanswered, unfortunately with what you speak of with the reviews is flawed, because if you are saying its the reviews that speak for it that could lead to the problem of allowing every style of music in and just allowing reviews to guide it, that means I could put Boy George(I don't like his music btw) on the website and wait for reviews to sort it out, thats why we have and admin team to sort these things out, and thats why we have these discussions to see if they have any merit, and if the admin like the idea. We can't have Miles Davis or David Bowie on prog related etc because their body of work is too different but some particular albums such as Davis's Bitches Brew anre important Milestones in prog and I believe that more people on this website should find out about it and that people review it, and appreciate it's significance to prog history.
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robertplantowns
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 333
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Posted: July 08 2006 at 00:02 |
I for one don't understand the obsession with finding out ultimately who's "truly prog" and who's not. It really doesn't matter and it would be a waste of time on this site. Also, isn't the whole point of proto-prog and prog-related categories is that they're NOT prog to begin with, so why should we be verifying their proginess when by the fact that they're in those categories it has already been established? Seems nonsensical to me. It seriously doesn't matter to me whether a band is labeled as prog, if you want to listen to the most innovative and proggy band, that's your choice, and if you want to listen to a band that's barely proggy at al, that's fine too. I think artists should be labeled by what the majority of their output is considered, and let the reviews speak for themselves! I also think this would take a disincentive out of reviews where people speak what they truly feel about the album and its "prog worthiness" rather than simply hitting a button to vote on a PROG FROM 1-10 scale. Maybe I'm the only one in here but this idea sounds ridiculous to me. I VOTE NO
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:51 |
[
There has already been discussion about why we need classification by album methods before. It has interest, but it hasn't really been acted upon. It's a good idea, I think genre classification by album would clear up a lot of problems many members have with the current classification system, but it just simply hasn't been acted on yet. [/QUOTE]
Yeah I'm just trying to draw attention to it, the reason I posted it here was so people could vote on it, also this sub-category of threads trends to gather more interest giving a more general view of the website. Well if you guys have already thought about it I'm sure It'll happen soon, this is just a bit of a nudge in that direction.
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: New Zealand
Status: Offline
Points: 1751
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Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:47 |
Peter Rideout wrote:
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.) |
sure your entitled to your opinion, this is what make this site so great is differing views.
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Peter
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: July 07 2006 at 23:13 |
I'm not trying to be difficult or contankerous, but I think this idea would only lead to more "prog or not"/"WTF is prog?" arguments.
(You see, prog does not really exist.)
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy.
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