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Sean Trane View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2006 at 11:18
Originally posted by maani maani wrote:

Sean:
 
Hmmm....no women?  Well, let's set aside that, historically - and not just vis-a-vis the capital C Church - women were far less often mentioned in historical recountings in any case.  This would have been true even if the capital C Church had not engaged in some "revisionism" re mentions and roles of women in Jesus' time.  However, even so, there is Mary Magdalene, of course, and Jesus' mother, Mary.  And there were Elizabeth, Anna, Martha, Sapphira, Dorcas, Lydia, Priscilla, Phebe, Drusilla and Bernice, and Eunice and Lois, just to name a few.  Simply because we know only bits of their stories does not mean that they did not play important roles.  (And, of course, the Old Testament includes numerous women in major roles: Eve, Sarah, Lot's wife, Rebekah, Rachel, Leah, Tamar, Zipporah, Miriam, Rahab, Ruth, Rizpah, Jezebel, and, of course, Esther, just to name a few.)
 
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
 
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection.  And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
 
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
 
Peace.
I think you meant the second part of your answer (bold characters) to somebody else, because I do not doubt of Jesus's existence or even thathe was a prophet!Confused
 
To come back at women, In primitive nomad times, the god was most of the times female, and once man started settling down and raising farmanimals, this started changing dramatically, why?
 
Heard this two weeks ago on Belgian state radio , but do not remember the name of the University doctor speaking:
Because the female was giving birth and therefore creating life and were considered deities in ways. Once the farmers raising their cattle observed that the cycle of life needed a male to fecond the female >> this was news to them before (according to him, this is the only plausible explanation was that the link of putting the seeds only became clear top mankind as it started cattle raising and the first agricultural fields). Than religion started becoming more of a male bastion/thing, but polytheism often had both types of god. But often the high priest was male and had its female servers >> which were often highlighted for the cult going wrong and the gods being angry at mankind. So gradually Women were phased out until Monotheism came in the fold of Judaism >> God was male, period!!
 
Myself speaking , now:
 
Beit in any of three religions from the book, the woman has been portayed as the one keeping the "hero" from the right path (the faith mostly) etc... and decided that in some case as Christianity did that they finally had a soul somewhere in the low medieval times >> just like they had discussion to see in Amerindians and Africans also had souls. >> let you draw the conclusion on this oneWink
 
 
 
 
I noticed you solidly avoid the other point in my post about the diffusion of the scriptures and changing them, must I think you are allowing me this?Wink
 
 
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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maani View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2006 at 10:52
Sean:
 
Hmmm....no women?  Well, let's set aside that, historically - and not just vis-a-vis the capital C Church - women were far less often mentioned in historical recountings in any case.  This would have been true even if the capital C Church had not engaged in some "revisionism" re mentions and roles of women in Jesus' time.  However, even so, there is Mary Magdalene, of course, and Jesus' mother, Mary.  And there were Elizabeth, Anna, Martha, Sapphira, Dorcas, Lydia, Priscilla, Phebe, Drusilla and Bernice, and Eunice and Lois, just to name a few.  Simply because we know only bits of their stories does not mean that they did not play important roles.  (And, of course, the Old Testament includes numerous women in major roles: Eve, Sarah, Lot's wife, Rebekah, Rachel, Leah, Tamar, Zipporah, Miriam, Rahab, Ruth, Rizpah, Jezebel, and, of course, Esther, just to name a few.)
 
As for "no hard evidence that Jesus existed," that is simply silly: one could then claim that not only did no one in the Bible (Old or New Testaments) exist, but also that dozens of historical figures didn't exist either, from Genghis Khan to Marco Polo.
 
Beginning with Josephus in the late first century, there are dozens of actual, physical texts from the end of the first century forward that mention Jesus and His ministry, and some even mention His crucifixion and alleged resurrection.  And there is absolute agreement in scholarly circles (including Jews, Christians, Gnostics, atheists et al) that, at very least, the Gospel of Mark is an authentic document, written around 60 A.D.
 
Thus, there is no question whatsoever that Jesus existed, even if people of various faiths (as well as scholars of all stripes) continue to debate whether He was a teacher, a rabbi, a prophet, or the literal "son of God," who was crucified and resurrected.
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2006 at 05:21
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Why do we need 4 Gospels anyway?
It seems a remarkably self-concious thing for the New Testament compilers to do.....

Ermm
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2006 at 04:58
Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:

(plus, there's almost no hard evidence that Jesus existed- and none at all concerning the Magdalene- so any details of his personal life should be regarded as pure speculation...)
 
Good point James!!
 
One of the most puzzling thing about the gospels and testaments >> no women around
 
It has been many times said and proved that women were flocking around the prophet and that they played an active life around him and actually steered him in his convictions.
Yet outside the Virgin mary (aaahh!! the immaculate conception thing) and this Maria Magdalena all feminine traces have been kindly erased from the scriptures >< revisionim if you ask me.
 
 
 
 
 
Maani, I have viewed the previous thread RL pointed to . will not give the link la second time for you are right not to reopen wounds Wink  RL  was an atheist cornered in a "Roman circus game" pitted against a batch of fierceful christian lions and he came out unscathed >> just a like poke or pique, hereLOL
 
Anyway:
 
I do not make yet a difference between gospels and those Four testaments, and I am afraid the subtelties will be lost on me, anyway. But the chruch spent centuries discussing and changing comas to the given text >> these Vatican guys were organizing congresses (Wink) and burning the ones threatening the changes!
 
altering texts that were confidential (copies were handmade and personally ordered along the wishes of the buyers >> full abbeys thrived on this business) was therefore quite easy, since nobody had the text and hardly anyone knew how to read!! Carolus Magnus at the end of the 8th century is the one that made schooling mandatory for kids and we know that this was only for a few priviledged youths anyway, since children were kept to do chores in lower circles.
 
Peace
 
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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James Lee View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 17 2006 at 02:09
(plus, there's almost no hard evidence that Jesus existed- and none at all concerning the Magdalene- so any details of his personal life should be regarded as pure speculation...)
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 19:36
Minkia:
 
Non-believers are certainly entitled to their opinions - as is everyeone else.  However, when you say, "The fact of the matter is that Jesus shagged Mary Magdalene...," you are prima facie stating it as a fact - not an opinion.  It was your "certainty" about your opinion - with absolutely not one shred of scholarly support - that caused my "quasi-sermon-like reaction" to your post.
 
An "opinion" is still expected to be based on at least minimal evidentiary or other support.  You offer little or none.  My response was a way of providing a "primer" on the history of early Christianity - as accepted by the vast majority of scholars, whether Jewish, Christian, Gnostic, atheist, or other.  Again, this does not mean that everything that any particular scholar, or even a group of scholars, agree on is 100% accurate.  It simply means that these scholars - who have spent far more time studying and researching this stuff than either of us - have independently come to similar conclusions about certain aspects of early Christianity.
 
My "opinion" is based on everything I have read, seen, etc.  And my reading etc. has been extremely broad over a period of more than 20 years - including many of the "alternative theories" of early Christianity.  That does not make my opinion "right"; but it does mean that it is supported by a wealth of varied scholarly information.
 
Peace.


Edited by maani - May 16 2006 at 19:37
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 19:01
Maani, you come across as though in a past life you were a Knight Templar, judging by your reaction to my post! Woah! Do I detect some slight biblical vehemence in your quasi-sermon-like reaction to my post??

Has it ever occurred to you that even non-believers have their own opinions, though these may sometime come across as being rather caustic or iconoclastic or uninformed?

You shouldn't take it so personal as it's only my opinion, after all.

Still...to quote Roger Waters '..the sheep are lost and the shepherd will never come back...'. How true.

    
    

Edited by Minkia - May 16 2006 at 19:12
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 18:08
Originally posted by James Lee James Lee wrote:


Then again, DVC is so popular that it might be a good time for anyone with a related agenda to jump on the bandwagon...


Thanks for that article James,an interesting read.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 15:32
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

All i can tell you is i'm tired to see everybody do the same and read the same book.


Same here
Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 06:33
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 05:56
Originally posted by Velvetclown Velvetclown wrote:

I AM THE WEB !!!
 
Is that a quote from The Matrix or the Marillion website?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 05:04
Dear God are you on the web ???


I AM THE WEB !!!
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 16 2006 at 04:12
^ one of my favorites. Virginia Madsen, Walken, Viggo, Amanda "Honeybunny" Plummer, Adam Goldberg (one of my favorite nerds, via Dazed and Confused)...

...but back on topic, it seems strange to me that DVC would cause such a controversy, as so very many films have used 'creative variations' on christian mythology- in the horror genre alone, I can think of a dozen right off the top of my head.

Then again, DVC is so popular that it might be a good time for anyone with a related agenda to jump on the bandwagon...

BTW Dan Brown...Umberto Eco called and he wants his idea back, if you're done translating it for young adult readers, that is. LOL




Edited by James Lee - May 16 2006 at 04:28
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 22:32
Stonebeard:
 
That's a new one on me; I'll try to find it.  A couple of my other favorite "Christian Dramas" are "Bless The Child" (with a preternaturally brilliant performance by 8-year-old Holliston Coleman, and excellent performances by Kim Basinger and Rufus Sewell) and the "Prophecy" series, with Christopher Walken as Gabriel.  [N.B.  In the first Prophecy film, Lucifer is played - quite neatly - by a young Viggo Mortensen.]
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:23
I liked Stigmata too. And since we're on the subject of controversial Cristian movies, anyone seen Bookdock Saints? I like that movie a lot. It's got quite a following at my school.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:21
Richard:
 
Actually, Stigmata is pretty darn good movie (I own a copy.)  And you're right: the premise included that a new gospel had been found (not necessarily written by Jesus, I believe) that suggested that the entire "organized" capital C Church was unnecessary, and the Vatican tried to suppress it.  Can't say I disagree...
 
Peace.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 21:09
My opinon. IT IS A BOOK!
It is a fictional book! That simple! I would go into a long rant but it will probably get me in a lot of trouble.
 
 
All I know is....Dan Brown must look at all this talk and laugh his way to the bank.


Edited by JJLehto - May 15 2006 at 21:09
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:23
Why do we need 4 Gospels anyway?
It seems a remarkably self-concious thing for the New Testament compilers to do.....
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 19:13
There was a film released a few years ago called 'Stigmata' (Gabriel Byrne and Patricia Arquette) that mused on the idea of a gospel that came direct from Jesus.The central idea of the plot was that the Catholic Church were aware of it and tried to surpress or hide its existence  because essentially Christ was trying to tell people in it that they didn't need organised religion to worship God.Its not a very good film but the central idea I thought quite interesting.I havn't seen Da Vinci Code yet (or read the book) but it sounds interesting.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 15 2006 at 13:19
Sean:
 
The gospels are simply called "gospels"; the "New Testament" is called that because it represents the entire (canonical) "testament" of the Christian faith.
 
There was little if any "melting down" (if by that you mean re-writing, editing, etc.) of any of the writings that eventually became the "New Testament."  Keep in mind that at least two of the gospels (Mark and Luke) had been circulating for over 200 years; thus, the populace would have noticed - and rejected - any obvious "fooling around" with them.  The one thing the Council of Nicea did do was to separate the gospels and other writings into chapters and verses; the original gospels, letters, etc. were written as continuous documents, without numbered chapters or verses.  Other than this, there was very little amending done, as far as most scholars believe.
 
As to why three of the four apostolic gospels (Mark, Luke, Matthew) seem to be so similar (and even John relates some of the same incidents, etc.), there are at least two theories about this.
 
The first is that the Gospel of Mark was used as a "jumping off point" by Luke and Matthew, both of whom would most certainly have seen it, if not had a copy.  They then added additional things they remembered individually.
 
For the other theory, let me give you a hypothetical situation.
 
Imagine the quarterback of a college football team, and his four closest buddies. These five guys spend two or three years together at college, almost inseparable, sharing lots of time and experiences.
 
Now fast-forward, say, thirty years, and ask the four friends, individually, to write about the time they spent with their friend the quarterback.  What would almost certainly happen is that about 50% of the four accounts would overlap perfectly, another 25% might be the same incidents but remembered in a slightly different order and/or with the words spoken being slightly different, and the other 25% would be incidents or discussions that only one or another of the friends recalled.
 
This is the second theory of why the four apostolic gospels are so similar: that you had four people recounting incidents and words that occurred thirty years prior, and thus while many of the incidents and words overlap perfectly or near-perfectly, some of the incidents are in a different order and/or Jesus' words are remembered with slight differences, and some of the accounts only occur in one gospel and not another.
 
In either case, it is not particularly surprising that the gospel accounts overlap as much as they do.  Indeed, given the "tightness" of the apostles' relationship, it would be far more remarkable if their gospels had diverged significantly.
 
That's the best I can do on short notice...LOL.  Hope it's helpful.
 
Peace.
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