Riverside ranked higher than ELP?

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ It's easy to pick two arbitrary reviews to make your point. I could also pick a -well, let's say "beginner review" of a classic album and compare it to a really good prog metal review (yes these exist - if all else fails there are always those that you yourself wrote).

That's utterly true.. but there is something like an balance in this.. In progmetal these things more tend to 5pointers then reasonable reviews..

I think I have to agree with Bluetailfly.. 

I think the " Top 100" doesn't make sence AT ALL.

Why?

- It isn't something to calculate, as Bluetailfly said erlier, the number of reviews IS of essence.

- Lovers and haters; With bands you've also have certain lovers (the now quite OFTEN used term "overrated"  gets of use..) and haters (for me, dream theater is one of them...) this won't get any brighter.. and with an " CALCULATED"  top 100 more difficult..

- Subjective vs. objective; some albums just deserve to be in an certain top " ... " . In prog there's an guidline to that I guess (essentional albums like ITCOTCK, CTTE etc. etc. ) but that would be even subjective too. I'd say let's make an split in the top 100; Pure essentional albums.. genres (tough the metal part would be Dream theater only, wich is rather sadly..). and/or even certain years/dates. MAYBE even make an " Weekly (dayly, monthly yearly whatever!) hilight" to bring an rather unknown but good album in the spotlight, so not only the albums that almost everybody knows of get heard, but also the lesser known.

other:

- People will review not to add something to an album (tough it gets screened/read now and then) but to put their band one spot higher (OR lower), with that the overall of an album will not be realistic. With that some things will get an rather childish look.

I've got a lot to add/delete within this post.. don't have the time for that now. Hopefully does this any good. Cheers

Lindsay Lohan wrote: ^ Ah well when the fans of the "true" progressive rock finds out about this im sure it will spawn alot of anonymous 1 star reviews

I don't want to have to stoop to that...but if becomes the only recourse for the righteous, we may just have to...

MikeEnRegalia wrote: Certif1ed wrote: One of the issues is that Progressive Metal reviews generally tend to be of the "fanboy" type, along the lines of "This is really great" and "I love this", and there are a lot of them. This is not exclusive to prog metal. Have a look at the reviews of the current top 5 ... also have a look at the reviews of prog metal albums which used to have a high ranking, and observe some serious bashing of the oh so civilised "prog rock only" fans ... I'm sure that Second Live Syndrome will soon become a victim of these "traditionalists". I'm sorry - which part of "generally tend" was so tricky to understand? It's true that the Classics have a higher proportion of idiot reviews too - generally the low rating ones. Classic Prog album reviews tend to be more realistic, and concentrate on qualities of the music rather than the percieved quality, since the sort of people that typically listen to Classic rather than Metal are more critical. There you ... ahem, I forgot that I'm not allowed to say that. There's the word "tend" again... Not only that, but people who aren't into Prog Metal tend to stay away from it as a genre rather than review it, so the reviews almost invariably come from people that love the albums. Yes ... rather than reviewing the albums, they just file 1 star ratings.  That happens to both categories - but you're right, there are a lot of cowardly hit and run ratings in the Prog Metal reviews, and I'm fairly sure that some of them came from "realistic" Classic prog lovers - I didn't say they were entirely sensible, did I? Please note that I'm not making this up or taking a swipe at Prog Metal or its fans ... No, of course not. I mean, it's not off-topic or anything ... ... the reviews speak for themselves - simply look at the front page of ProgArchives for verification of this. I'll do just that.

To illustrate my points only - with apologies to the authors for taking these as examples - it was entirely random that they happened to be there at the time...

PROG METAL REVIEW currently on the front page:

Well, I really don't know what to whrite here. The first time I heard BE I had only listened to PoS for a short time, and I was still exploring their older albums with great intrest. I heard a couple of songs of it when my friend bought it, and I thought it sounded really wierd. Lot's of wierd talking, and stuff, that didn't make any sense to me at the time. Than I actually got to a place where I got to borrow the album from him, and I listened to it a couple of times, until I thought it was pretty good. So, I decided to get the album, and this is where it really turned. The more I listened to BE and the more I understood the concept, and the lyrics on the album, as well as beginning to know the songs the way I like to, I just started liking it more and more! And that is the way it has continued, and now I would say that BE is, if not THE, than at least not very far from the best album ever made, in my opinion. Now I listen to it practicly at least a couple of times a mounth, and it gets better for every time! TIP: Have time with BE, get to know it, cuz it's really worth it!

CLASSIC PROG REVIEW currently on the front page:

Welcome to Czukay’s unique and fantasist musical universe. Czukay's first solo album after his departure from Can. Recorded with the collaboration of Can's family members (Irmin Schmidt, Michael Karoli) this album features 4 original, very distinct, intriguing songs which develops Czukay's aptitude to combine alternative sounds to synth / guitar experimentations (from world to a funk, jazzy felt). Taken from diverse sources (TV, radio...) many electronic collages & samplings enrich the compositions and give to them something special, rather unconventional. Discreet, floating pop vocals accompany the instrumental sections. The sound of the album is still fresh & modern. All tracks include a lot of changes and progressions in themes and materials. A few of them have a nice, satiric, hilarious flavour as in the funkadelic & rhythmical "Cool in the Pool" . "Oh Lord give us more money "is my favourite song on this one; a personal, fuzzy, detached and jazzy tune. "Persian Love" is directly influenced by Arabic music with traditional vocals and percussions augmented by different electronic samples. A complex album which needs several listenings before giving a proper judgement! Just be careful, this recording has its soft moments. For prog-heads I warmly advise the revolutionary “Canaxis”.

Note the tendencies I mentioned in the Metal review (a 5 starrer), and note also the considerations of the music's qualities in the Classic review (a 3-starrer).

In both cases, the authors clearly like the music.

Only in the second does the author attempt to rationalise feelings for the music and give any actual clues as to what the music sounds like - ie, it's a more realistic review, and paints a really good picture of the MUSIC.

In the first, it's just praise - but for what? There is no indication of what it sounds like, except "wierd", "pretty good", and "gets better every time". 

I would be left wondering what the heck it sounded like - if I didn't already have several inklings...

I know exactly which album I'd check out first

^

Ah well when the fans of the "true" progressive rock finds out about this im sure it will spawn alot of anonymous 1 star reviews

One of the issues is that Progressive Metal reviews generally tend to be of the "fanboy" type, along the lines of "This is really great" and "I love this", and there are a lot of them.

Classic Prog album reviews tend to be more realistic, and concentrate on qualities of the music rather than the percieved quality, since the sort of people that typically listen to Classic rather than Metal are more critical.

Not only that, but people who aren't into Prog Metal tend to stay away from it as a genre rather than review it, so the reviews almost invariably come from people that love the albums.

Please note that I'm not making this up or taking a swipe at Prog Metal or its fans - the reviews speak for themselves - simply look at the front page of ProgArchives for verification of this.

bluetailfly wrote: Well, then I see this "dampening" as the cause of the problem. Why was that instituted? So that lesser known bands would appear in the top lps?

No ... so that better rated bands would appear at the top. (see below)

bluetailfly wrote: What would happen if this "dampening" effect were taken off? I would be curious to see the results. BTW/ Thanks for providing this information; I really appreciate it.

When I first came to this website the list was compiled like you suggest. The result was that Dream Theater - Train of Thought and later also Dream Theater - Octavarium were in the top 10 with more than 200 ratings but an average of less than 4.0. At the same time, Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick (which back then had an average of 4.88 with a respectable number of ratings around 70) was around position 50.

I presented the changes of the algorithm to M@x and we both liked the new list better than the old one, and so it was adopted. But it is in no way manipulating the results.

BTW: When the new version of the progarchives website nears completion (whenever this will be), I will suggest to M@x that several "algorithms" can be chosen from - average rating only, number of ratings only, this algorithm ... and another more sophisticated algorithm that I have in mind, which finds underrated "gems".

bluetailfly wrote: Lofcaudio wrote: bluetailfly, the algorithm figures that in.  (Otherwise, it wouldn't be an algorithm...it would be an average.) Like it or not, but of the people who have made reviews have given higher marks to Riverside over ELP.  I actually would rather listen to Riverside myself.  I understand that you are wanting ELP to have some "bonus" for being influential in this music that we love.  But frankly, ELP struggled with putting together a solid album.  In my opinion, all of their albums (BSS included) has glaring flaws (e.g. Benny the Bouncer). The fact is Lofcaudio, if you asked prog members at large which of those two lps should be ranked higher, I believe the vast majority would say BSS. I'm not asking for a bonus, just an accurate reflection of the prog membership's opinion. The fact that you'd rather listen to Riverside than BSS is an semi-interesting footnote to the discussion, but isn't really relevant.

 This website is asking exactly that ... and the people are answering in the form of ratings and reviews. IMO the ratings in this case say that ELP are more popular ... but Riverside are either generally rated better, or recieve less "bashing" (1 star reviews).

Lofcaudio wrote: bluetailfly, the algorithm figures that in.  (Otherwise, it wouldn't be an algorithm...it would be an average.) Like it or not, but of the people who have made reviews have given higher marks to Riverside over ELP.  I actually would rather listen to Riverside myself.  I understand that you are wanting ELP to have some "bonus" for being influential in this music that we love.  But frankly, ELP struggled with putting together a solid album.  In my opinion, all of their albums (BSS included) has glaring flaws (e.g. Benny the Bouncer).

The fact is Lofcaudio, if you asked prog members at large which of those two lps should be ranked higher, I believe the vast majority would say BSS. I'm not asking for a bonus, just an accurate reflection of the prog membership's opinion. The fact that you'd rather listen to Riverside than BSS is an semi-interesting footnote to the discussion, but isn't really relevant.