ELP Underrated? |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17370 |
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Hi, I'm of the opinion that ELP did not quite fall prey to the sales and success that Yes, Genesis and Rush fell towards. ELP was more concerned with its musical ability and its definition, which would be a problem for Keith to express himself to his 2 mates, but we can easily state that they did very well together! I fell out of those 3 bands in the mid 70's as I find that they did not exactly continued on an artistic landscape, and in my opinion they started to create works to satisfy the audience instead. That's what "hits" and "fame" do to you, and that is a well known fact. But I doubt that hits and fame would have changed the musical talent and ability that Keith showed, and his mates helped in that area, despite what might be considered an issue here and there, and even Greg Lake specified in a couple of specials, that in the end, some of the stuff they did was very difficult, and required a level of interaction with each other to make it work ... most rock bands are not musically strong enough to consider that in their music ... and have a tendency to change a chord and do something else here and there, and then add a solo here and there, and ... you get the idea. Music is a lot more than that, and it will always be, and the formatted and stuck "pop" music, will dominate as long as sales make it so ... when the sales drop off it will change to something else. I think that Keith wanted to go into an area that was more classical in style, but it was a severe problem with the record company and specially the folks distributing the materials ... all of a sudden the Manticore stuff would not be picked up as it once was, or exposed as well. It helped PFM and BANCO for a time, but in the end, they had to fend for themselves, because the distributors for Manticore didn't want stuff that did not bring in the big money like ELP could. And I have a feeling that their last album was a finger to many of those folks.
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Jared
Forum Senior Member Joined: May 06 2005 Location: Hereford, UK Status: Offline Points: 18987 |
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the fact that by 1976 they could barely be in the same room as each other didn't make for a collaborative writing relationship, but ultimately they were unable to navigate the choppy waters of the late 70's music scene with anything approaching the success of Yes, Genesis or Rush. there are other bands who had the talent to become 80's household names, but could never write material that gelled with the 'new wave', such as Renaissance or Gentle Giant and who could also be described as 'Underrated' as a consequence...
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Music has always been a matter of energy to me. On some nights I believe that a car with the needle on empty can run 50 more miles if you have the right music very loud on the radio. Hunter S Thompson
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Steve Wyzard
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 30 2017 Location: California Status: Offline Points: 2471 |
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Then they went one step further and at the end of their writing/recording career made an album absolutely NO ONE liked: In the Hot Seat. You will occasionally find people who will defend (parts of) Love Beach, but I've never seen even a condescending defense of In the Hot Seat. Reading back over the pages of this thread, I can't help but wonder if another reason the band is underrated is the fact that at various times, Keith, Greg, and Carl fought like cats and dogs. Their two public break-ups (later followed by half-hearted reunions - creditors still must be paid) were unsettling and acrimonious enough to discourage even the most devout fans. ALL bands have troubles "getting along", especially while on long tours, but ELP even pushed this cliche to the limit on multiple occasions.
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17370 |
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Hi, I see it differently. If you compare the TIME and PLACE, to a lot of film, theater and literature, ELP was on par with a lot of folks ... that specific time span involved a lot of things that were, likely, overrated, and also over the top a bit, or as you say overstretched. It's almost like saying that some of the shredding so many guitarists do in metal is not overrated and overstretched!!!! But, you and I are not sitting here and saying that Marat/Sade was overstretched, or the version of Much Doggy Do About Nothing in a child's play park. Or a director doing films about a lot of artists, and always having moments that were over the top ... and crazy ... as Ken Russell did with so many of them, including other artists (like Rossetti) ... and of course, 2001 at the Cinerama Dome, and done in special theaters with massive sound in many big cities (joke used to be that small towns did not know sound, or music!) ... and then we end up saying that ELP is overstretched and overdone (it likely is for small town folks that have never seen anything like it!) ... and I do not think so ... seeing that bit in Montreal freezing and playing to no one in the audience, should let you know ... it wasn't exactly about the show ... but the way the music was done and shown ... and I suppose some think it is too much ... but then, I also saw some fat old smelly rich witches come out of the show EAST MEETS WEST with Yehudi Menuhin and Ravi Shankar (in Chicago) and state on their way out of the theater ... "how can anyone call that improvisation ... music!" ... (sometimes it feels like a PA fan 30 years earlier!!!)
Edited by moshkito - September 25 2024 at 07:46 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Floydoid
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 02 2007 Location: Planet Prog Status: Offline Points: 1417 |
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I think ELP rightly deserve their place at the top table being regarded as one of the 'big six', tho if they'd have called it a day after Works 1 they might possibly be even higher rated. That later part of their career, for me, was so inconsistent quality wise.
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'We're going to need a bigger swear jar.'
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David_D
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Is ELP underrated? YEP
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quality over quantity, and all kind of PopcoRn almost beyond
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27729 |
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For the fans it's normally Trilogy and Brain Salad Surgery but the live triple is maybe their most famous album nowadays. It is synonomous with the excess and bombast of ELP. Overstretching to a massive extent was ELP's raison d'etre.
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kirk782
Forum Groupie Joined: September 06 2024 Location: India Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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ELP is often criticized by folks for their bombastic stage presence and their overblown performances. Their endless brand of progressive rock didn't go down well with many people either. Though, ELP weren't boring. There were many, many, many bands which were boring and which got bogged down in endless noodling that went nowhere; peak ELP, seemed to have a direction. Their debut album, Tarkus, songs off Trilogy are a testament to their greatness.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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^Yes Keith was collaborating with Bob Moog in developing the first polyphonic synth (there were a couple of duophonic models but by "polyphonic" here we mean with 3 voices or more).
During the prototype stages it was called the Apollo and the final production version came out in 1975 called Polymoog. From 1973 Bob Moog lent the prototype to Keith, who debuted it in the BSS album and he used it in that tour (together with the other prototype Lyra which Keith described as "a Minimoog on steroids" (monophonic) and which never made it to production). Indeed Bob Moog lent another unit of the Apollo prototype to Patrick Moraz and apparently Keith didn't like this at all. But the development of this synth was not led by Bob Moog but by a guy called David Luce, who chose for the technology called "divide down" used by the string machines, and this technology while making polyphony much easier, could not produce the full-bodied sounds of a normal monophonic synth, and as a result the timbres produced by the Apollo / Polymoog were rather weak and the programming options were limited. In parallel Yamaha was also working on a polyphonic synth which came out nearly at the same time in 1975, the huge and super-expensive GX-1, which produced much better sounds at the cost of less polyphony (8 voices while the Apollo / Polymoog were fully polyphonic with 71 voices for their 71 keys). Additionally Bob Moog was getting tired and fed up with certain aspects of his company management and was considering selling it (which he did in 1977 to Norlin). All factors together resulted in Keith ending his long collaboration with Moog and switching to Yamaha from the Works Vol 1 album (and later also Korg). However Keith kept using his iconic modular Moog in the concerts. |
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27729 |
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^ apparently Keith ended his association with Bob Moog when a synthesiser they had both been working on together was shipped to Patrick Moraz. (Ken Golden told this anecdote on a y/t show where the Sea Of Tranquillity dudes were discussing a four album battle between CTTE, Red, Lamb and BSS, no prizes for guessing what came last).
Personally I found Works a bit dull at the time. I liked the cheesy side of ELP and they had suddenly got very serious with the Piano Concerto et al. All these years later I like the album a lot (never going to love it I think) but the stain that stayed with them and can never be washed away is Love Beach. The genius band that helped changed the face of music had become invisible. Part of the issue that Emerson and Lake had stopped writing music together and that was when the creativity died. They could surely have put the bad publicity of Works behind them but the horrible decision that was Love Beach will always remain part of their legacy and that's a shame.
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
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Their post-Welcome Back My Friends... stuff did a lot of harm to their reputation, even if Works Vol 1 was a good and innovative album.
Plus they were the ones who got the most ruthless criticisms in the 2nd half of the 70s for self-indulgent, pretentious and overblown, after the ruinous and failed orchestral tour. In hindsight it's hard to imagine how neither their management nor their accountants nor themselves could make such a huge mistake when judging the foreseeable profit & loss statements of that tour, but the fact is that they made it, of 100+ foreseen shows only 15 could be finally made with the orchestra, and they were still lucky that most fans who had bought their tickets to see a show of ELP with orchestra did not complain and ask for their money back when they finally had to see them as just a trio. And for whatever other reasons they do not seem to have the appreciation by the younger generations of proggers, perhaps in part by their ecclecticism, inconsistent output, and the very limited presence of electric guitar. But in 1972 they were the top progressive rock band, in the Melody Maker Readers' Poll awards of that year they were elected as best rock band in the world, Keith as best rock keyboard player, Carl as best rock drummer, Greg as best producer and Keith & Greg shared the award as best composers. They were on fire and the awards were celebrated with a concert in which they brought 2 giant Tarkus puppets which threw smoke from the mouth and shooted foam from the cannons. They purchased a theater in Fulham London as a rehearsal place and also they established Manticore Studios there, where also bands like PFM recorded some albums. Bands like Led Zepp and Jethro Tull went there to rehearse their shows. Keith was collaborating with Bob Moog in the development of the first polyphonic synth which would eventually become the Polymoog, Carl together with the British Steel Company built his famous custom stainless steel drum kit, and Greg ordered the luthier Tony Zemaitis his custom double neck which would eventually be too heavy and he only used it in the Welcome Back... tour. In summary, at that time they were the biggest prog band out there. I love them even with their inconsistencies. |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17370 |
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Hi, 55 years later, and a spoiled listening audience that had no idea how valuable and huge (and important) some things were in the late 60's ... I think it is impossible to take the current folks comments properly, specially when they come from the side of "preference" instead of a simple explanation of their reasoning why ... perhaps they have no explanation beyond "preference", and in these days of Internet, they have the right to say so ... but it's hard to not notice the lack of history and the appreciation for the time and place, when these things took place. It's like all the SF, NY, London, Paris, Tokyo stuff in the 60's was an illusion ... just another Russ Meyer film, with a bad poster to tease your memory! I don't think of anything as "over rated" or "under rated" ... it is what it was and that's that ... and my liking it or not has nothing to do with it ... regardless of "when". But some of the comments are really sad.
Edited by moshkito - May 07 2024 at 15:09 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Stigfzm
Forum Newbie Joined: April 10 2024 Location: China Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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That's a fair comment. I'm also confused by ELP's inconsistency within their albums. Tarkus and Brain Salad Surgery both contain the apex of Keith Emerson IMO, but strangely also have stupid ballads or pop songs. That just explains why ELP's debut album is concluded in the top 100. Thanks mate
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richardh
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 18 2004 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 27729 |
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Oh this bloody top 100 thing again.
ELP albums are rated correctly with maybe the exception being BSS. The first 4 studio albums are all around 4 (excellent addition to a prog collection). The triple album also has a similar rating. The rating system though on PA is very unsophiscated with no half marks allowed. Quite likely BSS would achieve a slightly higher rating if you didn't have to deduct a whole point for the risable BTB (that has always harmed it's standing here I believe). That's my main complaint but it's not a big one because ELP decided to include it and that's a mistake they have to own (when they toured the album it was the only track they didn't play so go figure). I believe a lot of stuff on PA only gets higher rated because the quality is more even and consistent , for instance Supertramps Crime Of The Century is a very enjoyable album but hardly ground breaking or innovative (ELP were those things IMO). 'Tramp were mainly good at soaking up influences and making things nice and tidy and the likes of Camel and a few others were also more in that mould as well. ELP were untidy and rather happier out in the world performing where they had less arguments and potential falling outs! Considering the number of albums released every year I would like to see more modern albums rated higher and it actually annoys me a tad that so much of the top 100 is the last century. But you have the filters and can pick years (grouped if you want) and so that's cool. I think it's much better to consider PA as a resource to try and gets to grip with the much varied many headed beast that is 'prog rock' rather than some form of bible. BTW over the years I've concluded that Gentle Giant fans are just as bad as ELP fans when it comes to being self entitled . Fact is ELP sold a shedload of albums and could stand on a stage and not look at out place next to the giants of rock music (Sabbath, LZ , Purple etc) . They could perform the sh*t out of it, sell out massive staduims and actually had personality. Beyond this they had one of the greatest musicians of the 20th century in Keith Emerson who had the talent to create Tarkus and Karn Evil 9. I only care about talent at the end of the day. ELP were all about talent and not about consistency or making good decisions. I'll take the former any day of the week and twice on Sundays.
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TheLionOfPrague
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I agree their 1970-1974 period seems underrated in the TOP 100, at least compared to the other "Big 6" bands. Even other bands like Gentle Giant, VDGG, or even more unknown bands for the general public like PFM seem to have higher rated albums.
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I shook my head and smiled a whisper knowing all about the place
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dr prog
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First album pretty good. They tended to get weaker after that. Didn’t like brain salad lol
Edited by dr prog - May 03 2024 at 17:50 |
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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Logan
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Jeff, I get where you are coming from in both posts and do appreciate your perspective. If I were to make list of most significant and quintessential Prog bands, ELP would be very high in the list. And if I were to do a top 100 most significant albums to Prog, ELP would again rank high. I'd be tempted to put Trilogy because that is one I have really liked and from my upbringing it's one of those I remember being in people's collections while a young child. When I seriously got into Prog in the 2000s, Trilogy is one of the first albums to which I returned. I have wondered if some others attitudes have tainted my appreciation for various ELP music or how much of it is just that my tastes shifted. When I joined PA, Gentle Giant and PFM were my favourite bands and now neither gets much attention from me... Moved onto other things. As noted, ELP has been a significant influence on many bands/musicians and I have been acquainted with people who loved bands/musicians/albums/tracks inspired by ELP while being quite scornful of ELP As for my own personal top 100 albums included in PA (and if doing so I would do one album per act), ELP would not make it, but then my tastes commonly do not run towards the more typical Prog suspects or Prog styles. A lot of what I like best in PA might not be considered Prog genre even if progressive music. As one person one put it bluntly at PA, I have terrible taste in music (not that I agree). -------------------------------------------------------- As to the issue of the much reviled overrated and underrated terms, a problem I see is that is they get "overused" and often it is just coming down to an "others don't appreciate certain music as much as I", or "others like music I don't appreciate much far too much" and "I know better". It can be a very arrogant, self-centred, and myopic assessment. That is subjective, but there are ways to consider the merits of art/bands/musicians in a more objective, evidentiary, knowledgeable and reasonable manner. Sometimes people overrate or underrate something (i.e, assess too highly or lowly) due to ignorance, erroneous assumptions, falsehoods, misinterpretation.... |
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Two tracks per many of my fave acts: A Youtube Playlist
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17370 |
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Hi, I agree with the lack of appreciation, specially for the lack of comprehension i regards to how you heard a lot of the music in the late 60's and early 70's, just before the FM radio band took over in America (1971/1972 for sure) ... and we heard the music, and it sounded glorious ... and there was no one that I can remember that did not appreciate it, or thought it was stupid. I don't know about the "pioneer" business, since ELP was not the only band to get a lot of spins on the new radio "sound", something I don't know folks today can relate to, which helped make a lot of bands huge, and with an incredible following that resulted in massive sales. Innovation ... I tend to look at differently ... innovation has always been there in many ways, styles and appearances, but for the time, AND PLACE, it's appearance was like the opening of 2001 for so many folks ... it was a huge wow ... but today, it's mostly all a cheap (and loud) light show and so many bands simply mailing their material! I don't think there will be another big "WOW" in music for many years to come, specially as we are not looking at new stuff, and keep regurgitating the old stuff. I wish that many more of us would listen to these favorites in the MONO version of things that was first heard in those days ... for many of us, the first thing you are going to do is ... yep ... throw up! And it makes you realize how important the advent of STEREO in the FM radio became, which helped Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and so many other bands that were very strong and different than most pop music on the cheap radio dial. Gosh, you should have heard the Moodies in the AM radio ... Nights in White Nothing ... is just ... so sad ... and if you use earphones, wow ... that's a mess!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13885 |
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Looking at how many bands have been deeply influenced by ELP, I think they
Edited by octopus-4 - May 03 2024 at 02:46 |
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Curiosity killed a cat, Schroedinger only half.
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Big Sky
Forum Senior Member Joined: October 24 2022 Location: USA Status: Offline Points: 500 |
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Logan, I understand what you are saying. That one can appreciate the importance of ELP to Prog Rock, indeed they are on the short list of most important bands to the genre of Prog, but not necessarily be a fan of their music. I guess Eddie Van Halen would be that for me in the guitar world. I recognize his importance to guitar generally and rock guitar specifically. He is one of the two most important rock guitarists ever. You can argue over if you want to place Hendrix or Eddie in the top spot. However, I can list probably over a hundred guitarists I rather listen to before picking Van Halen. If it's specifically Rock guitarist, then there are certainly at least 50 I would pick. His style was never one that I wanted to absorb in my playing as a guitarist. Howe, Morse, Lifeson, Fripp, McLaughlin were the guys that I was more interested in as a guitarist. I will say as far as ELP is concerned, I would have 3 albums in my top 100 as far as PA is concerned. BSS and maybe Trilogy would be in my top 50. |
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