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Was Pete Sinfield essential for King Crimson? |
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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Online Points: 17502 |
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 Posted: March 01 2024 at 08:24 |
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Hi, I think it was a bad match. It was like saying that what PFM had was worthless and it had a lot to offer, and was fun to listen to, and it also had a bit of a laugh in it, which PS lacked in my book. I think PS mostly worked at translating things, but in the end, they did not come off very well, and in listening to the PFM folks do it, it seems like they are having issues doing it, and getting their feeling and characterizations through. The other well known person translating some Italian folks was Peter Hammill that did at least "Felona e Serona", if I remember correctly. I don't know if this "fits" or not in this discussion, but going back to the Moody Blues, there appears to be an attempt at POETRY, rather than just lyrics, and I have a feeling that it may have been what got the "Art Rock" thing started, though one could think of The Nice doing classical music as the same thing. The use of Pete Sinfield, and then later others (the poetess with Renaissance), and helped later get more appreciation for the likes of Roy Harper, the true poet since then and then some! I think that by the time that the music went totally commercial (Led Zeppelin) that the whole thing was no longer important, and folks did their own thing. But some of the European material that ended up being known as "progressive" had a lot of very literary work. ANGE was not only poetic, it was also theatrical. Very much "Art Rock". |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Moyan
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 07:45 |
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Sean Trane
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Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 07:28 |
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Svettie, I agree that when Frippy and Sinfield parted, Crimson's artistic airy-fairy license went with the latter and is indeed somewhat present in Still (brilliant cast, though), but it lacks the former's crunchy musical input. Too bad he mostly failed communicating his style to ELP and didn't succeed with PFM's English-sung albums. Thankfully, you don't think he would've changed Boris The Spider from proto-metal anthem into airy-fairy folk, by contributing to it.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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Moyan
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 06:38 |
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 06:07 |
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Never heard of him. But your assumption is invalid. Nobody knows how KC would have developed without him, it's completely possible that they would have found their way towards "surreal concepts" anyway.
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Moyan
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 06:02 |
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While "Larks' Tongues in Aspic," released in the same year, is today regarded as the ultimate progressive masterpiece, I must say that, personally, I more like the vibe on "Still," which is more akin to the timeless "Lizard," my dream King Crimson album, than the aforementioned KC's fifth studio album, which, despite the demonstrated technical skill that certainly was mind-blowing for 1973, nowadays sounds dated to me.
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Saperlipopette!
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 04:24 |
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I agree with everything, but I felt like quoting this last part
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Sean Trane
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Posted: March 01 2024 at 02:34 |
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This!! and the only member that stayed through 5 albums Apart from bringing the visual parts of Crimson (the artworks, the vocal imagery and lights on stage) he also toyed with sonics both in studio and on stage (VCS3 from the sidelines) methinks that what irritated Frippy most was that Sinfield collected as much royalties "just for the lyrics" as he did for Lizard & Island. That's why he sacked Pete, and he angered Boz, Ian & Mel in doing so.
I certainly enjoyed much more Sinfield's texts than RPJ's or Ade Belew's. Sinfield wasn't far from beat poetry as was Procol's Keith Reid or Pete Brown (Cream, JB, Battered Ornament & Piblokto). Actually, I believe the latter was openly recognized as a beat poet.
Edited by Sean Trane - March 01 2024 at 02:46 |
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 23:58 |
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I did not know that. I learned something new.
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richardh
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 23:55 |
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Memoirs Of An Officer and a Gentleman, All I Want Is You and For You were decent songs imo. The album was killed by a terrible album cover and not having a decent producer which was absolutely essential for the time (1978). In any case it would have been better if the band had rested coming off the back of a 140+ date Works tour. I wouldn't blame Sinfield for that album especially as there was a lot going on at the time. Sinfield was first hired by ELP to help with the sci-fi concept piece Karn Evil 9. He came up with the title based on Carnival. That's all well known, Sinfield then wrote the lyrics for his classic Xmas hit although Lake always managed to take the credit for it. He also wrote the lyrics fo C'Est La Vie which was a massive hit in France for another artist and then later for Bucks Fizz Land Of Make Believe whihc I think made NO1 in the UK. Strange to think this was the same guy that had wrote the lyrics for one of the most important albums in pop and rock history. Lake and Sinfield never worked together again after Love Beach.
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Jacob Schoolcraft
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 18:39 |
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Pete Sinfield as a lyricist was essential to King Crimson. If you observe how sporadic instruments are in certain songs and how the phrasing of his lyrics are fitting to that its amazing. It's amazing to me how it all came together.
Who else was doing this sort of style? Keith Reid with Procol Harum...Graham Edge in the Moody Blues..however Sinfield could be pure fantasy and its a huge difference in style. ISLANDS....the lyrics were poetic and clearly could have been detached from the song and released as a poem ...possibly altered slightly..not too much. INDOOR GAMES...Bizarre...disturbing? Demented? It certainly is if you follow the lyrics. Gordon Haskell's laughter at the end was accidental after he started comprehending the words and struggling to sing them and on Cirkus after singing "Bid me join the parade " he yells in frustration. All of this occurred within him because he felt like he wasn't doing a good job where ironically the laughter and the scream were perfect for the songs. ...so they left it in 😃 Greg Lake was a complete natural. He had a glorious voice and he brought Sinfield's work to life. "EPITAPH ", ITCOTCK etc... Boz Burrell had the perfect voice for "Formentara Lady" and "Islands". Pete Sinfield was a outstanding lyricist..and of course odd at times...whimsical...bewitching. IN THE COURT OF THE CRIMSON KING is bewitching. Court, Poseidon, Lizard and Islands would never have carried that unique originality without the lyricism of Pete Sinfield. As a lyricist he made all 4 albums magical. There is in fact something magical about the first 4 albums. ..and they can be dark. They are sophisticated albums. Sinfield's work has a distinctive characteristic to it. |
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Valdez1
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Joined: February 07 2024 Location: Walla Walla Wa Status: Offline Points: 351 |
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 17:38 |
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Belew had some great lyrics also. and some that were not. I remember when I first heard Elephant Talk, Sleepless, I was impressed. Model Man had great simple lyrics. A far cry though from the doom laden, heavy, medieval fantasy, and somewhat sci-fi Sinfield lyrics, which I enjoy above all else. Who wrote "The Letters" anyway... I forget. The Song STILL with Greg Lake singing is classic fantastic Sinfield... Whole food Boogie and the rest of Sinfields album seemed to miss the mark for me. I liked Brain Salad surgery when I was young... Not so much anymore. I wish Boz had been around longer with KC. His vocals on Earthbound were killer even if recorded poorly. Wetton was the Star Singer after Greg Lake. He also did some terrific Ballads . Haskell no slouch either with his quirky singing style. All good. The Power to believe is the album that lost me... Me no like much, lyrically or musically. Every time I hear BUDE, I feel embarrassed. TCoL had good stuff, but I don't like the way it was produced or "Engineered" by "Machine". (whoever he was). Sounded like the band was compressed in a soundproofed Bathroom with no air. But Heavy Construkction fixed that... much better. I actually thought the penis of an alien buried in gelatin was a nice touch. And Palmer James... fantastic lyrics that took up where Peter left off, albeit with a fresh, more relatable style. Is Sinfield still with us BTW? ...Peter?
Edited by Valdez1 - February 29 2024 at 17:48 |
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Disconnect
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 17:37 |
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Not essential but happily welcomed in those early years. I'll leave it at that.
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Grumpyprogfan
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 16:48 |
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The Dark Elf
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 16:41 |
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Except Wetton didn't write the lyrics during his tenure with King Crimson, Richard Palmer James, one of Wetton's buds (and original guitarist for Supertramp), was the lyricist. And I think I appreciate Palmer-James' lyrics more than Sinfield's. "The Night Watch" is an outstanding bit of poetry.
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 16:04 |
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Agreed^ KC's early vocalists-" Haskell, Boswell" didn't have the lyrical chops that John Wetton had. Lake wrote decent lyrics, yet ELP employed Sinfield lyrical skills from Brain Salad Surgery through Love Beach.
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dr wu23
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 15:03 |
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Well he did lyrics on the first 4 yet ...Larks Tongues, Starless , and REd are exceptional lps ...so the band obviously did not need his lyrics later so no he was not essential thoiugh he certainly set the tone for the atmosphere on early lps.
Edited by dr wu23 - February 29 2024 at 15:04 |
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omphaloskepsis
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 15:01 |
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Pete was essential for early KC. ELP should have hired somebody else to write lyrics for Love Beach.
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lazland
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 14:30 |
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Valdez1
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Posted: February 29 2024 at 14:10 |
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Pete’s lyrics were some of the finest ever penned at the time. Absolutely yes they were essential and gave the entire first 2 albums their personality and vibe. In 1969 -70 people just weren’t doing instrumentals unless they were over 50. (Brigadoon, Paul Mauriat, maybe the ventures lol). Those lyrics as sung by Greg Lake created King Crimson and I doubt if RF could have scored so well without them.
Edited by Valdez1 - February 29 2024 at 14:20 |
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Sean Trane wrote: