Most Hated Sub-Genre of prog

siLLy puPPy wrote: O666 wrote: This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans. Imagine one young guy that like Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them. Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans. The problems comes from not being able to multiply tag albums individually. I think anyone savvy enough can cross reference from other sources or check out a music sample to verify what a genre of any album is. That's what i do.

MikeEnRegalia wrote: ^ I think there's no bad genre, there's only bad albums. Or as a corollary, there's great albums in all the genres. I agree that neo prog lends itself to boring music - it just goes with the genre. Avant prog on the other hand is rarely boring, but that doesn't mean it's automatically good - instead of boredom, the problem with avant is that it can easily be grating/aggravating/nonsensical, or the musicians are constantly playing music that it actually above their skill level, resulting in sloppy timing.  So: don't hate genres, focus instead on loving great releases regardless of genres (or tags).

I'm not saying it's a bad genre, just in case that's not clear, and I have found music to like included in every category at PA, but of course as we not only don't tag by the track, we don't tag by the album, this music may not be of the sub-genre/ representative of the sub-genre it is included in. For me, Neo-Prog lends itself to cringe-y music and lends itself to mediocrity. I find it alienating as it does not seem to speak to my character. That kind of emotionality, those guitar solos and keyboards, its relationship with arena rock and AOR (as a a genre label), it kind of disturbs me.    I also notice that people into it tends to be into bands that I really actively have loathed that are not labelled that way here, such as Spock's Beard. There's something about the Neo-Prog style and related music that reminds me of having listened to music in a Pentecostal Church, and I get nightmares about going into such places. Afterwards I need to cleanse myself by listening to some Coven or Black Widow.

As said earlier, those building blocks do not appeal to me. I do think you can have bad genres, there may even be a genre of music called Bad Music. That said, bad can be very good for me, think The Shagg's Philosophy of the World and Tommy Wiseau's The Room. Really bad I can love, it's the mediocre stuff that disappoints me which is where I would tend to place so much Neo-Prog. Of course bad often is subjective, but there are metrics that can be used.

Avant-Prog itself I find to be a sloppy label often as it is used. It's a big umbrella term label here and of course it crosses over into other sub-genres. It generally has characteristics like dissonance, density and complexity associated with it, and has had an influence of avant-garde art/ academic music. It is a very eclectic category here, and a lot of music is just thrown in there because it sounds kind of weird/ has certain quirky qualities. Like Eclectic and Crossover Prog, and the other categories to some extent, it is a mixed bag as it works (maybe at this site especially).   A lot of it I might just call Eclectic Prog (as this site created it) on the weirder side. The Eclectic, Crossover and Avant Prog teams often discussed submitted acts between the teams to decide n fit when it cam to evaluations in my day. A lot of people I think disparage Avant-Prog not because they are anti an avant-garde approach (this could refer to taking influence from earlier 20th century music movements or being progressive by pushing the boundaries an d experimental, which a lot of it really is not) simply because they think it is weird. And a lot of it does sound weird especially to an ear that is unaccustomed to such music (one might say much the same of nay music one is unaccustomed to, and sometimes you have to tune your ears over time).

Anyway, in answering that remark about whether or not it's because it's not Prog, maybe it rather depends on what you mean by Prog. I consider The Flower Kings to be very Prog-by-style, but I have looked down on that (my wife called me a snob the other day, and I can be -- need to curb that). If Neo-Prog was more progressive with a small p, experimental, varied, less polished, I would like it more. A lot of it has sounded derivative, not organic, and generic to my ears. It can be too polished a product for me that can be too formulaic to my ears.

That said, this was not what I hate, but what I think is most hated by others, and sharing my experiences of the music. I have enjoyed some genuine Neo-Prog and I do not hate it even if a lot of makes me cringe and carries some bad associations to subcultures that I do not identify with, alienate me and even disturb me. So much of your appreciation comes down to what associations we have made.

Edited by Logan - July 17 2023 at 11:33

Nogbad_The_Bad wrote: O666 wrote: This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans. Imagine one young guy that Marillion post-fish albums like Brave (for example!) read Neo-Prog sub-gen and try to find other bands with the same label and try IQ, Arena, Pendragon etc. Ofcourse he/she cant find his/her fav music between them. Or in Psychedelic / space Rock and ..... its happen too. IMO PA must think about it specially for young fans. By young you mean under 50?

This not about music IMO. its about definition of sub-gens in PA . Most of them are not clear and its always made and will make trouble for young fans.

Edited by O666 - July 17 2023 at 06:49

cstack3 wrote: Back in the early 1970s, some in the USA referred to many subgenera as "Theater Rock."   This video certainly shows why!

Logan wrote: Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.

Pretty much where I am, nice post. 

Edited by Nogbad_The_Bad - July 17 2023 at 05:39

suitkees wrote: Personally, I hate the overwhelming presence of those prog-metal subgenres like tech-, extreme-, post- and experimental-metal of which the progressiveness to my ears is generally accessory instead of a constitutive element of the music. If tempo changes suffice to consider something prog, that seems to me a bit week... Keep them at the neighbours where their presence is much more pertinent.

Turning things around, these are my ten most-loved sub-genres of prog

Neo-Prog, Prog Metal, Avant-Prog, Zeuhl all have got plenty of derision. I think generally, not just with the PA community, probably Neo-Prog would get the most derision followed by Prog Metal. Neo-Prog is seen as watered down commercially b*****dised insipid and too often emo symph meets lame and often ballady pop rock. I don't think that that it's not Prog (as genre) enough is the reason so many look down on it (lots of those people look down on modern bands that sound Prog-by-numbers or retro-Symph....), but it's not seen as very adventurous, is lacking in originality, progressive (with a small p) or interesting. It can be quite saccharine, angsty in a whiny way to my ears. That's how I have seen it at least and have seen similar sentiments from others. It made me cringe. Especially among those who are not into the more melodic rock and symphonic rock side, it might be seen as really tame and lame compared to so much other music Prog and not Prog. I know I like lots of stuff that maybe only falls under a greater, very wide Prog umbrella if considered Prog at all, and I generally don't care much for the most obviously Prog music, especially from the modern era (much of what I like in rock might be called art rock, and progressive with a small p). I had strong antipathy towards it. And while I know it will never be amongst the genres I identify with and resonate with me, I have liked lots of people at this forum who really like it, and that matters to me more than if I like it. If it weren't for my respect and like of them, my derision and revulsion for Neo-Prog likely would be as strong as ever. That said, I still want to connect with people who like it, so if I include Neo-Prog in a poll, it is not because I want to put it down or turn those people onto better music. That that happens is just an unintentional side-effect.

Edited by Logan - July 16 2023 at 21:56