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The Dawkins' Scale

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JD View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 14:41
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I'm a pantheist. 
Is that someone who runs around without any pants on?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tapfret Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 14:32
The whole concept, including Mr. Dawkins' list is rife with anthropocentricism. The problems include:

1. A very narrow definition of sentience. 
2. A very narrow definition of animate vs inanimate.
3. A very narrow perception and attribution of scale in the scope of cosmic time and space.
4. A very narrow version of what constitutes a higher power.

As far is what I believe in the context of the god vs no god debate, the premise that God is some version of this,

, is quite laughable. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote richardh Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 14:00
I'm certainly a 2. but it doesn't give me any comfort to believe in God. I also believe in reincarnation and I don't much like that idea either. You come from somewhere and you go somewhere. It may sound ridiculous (but we're probably all or most going to be dead within 12 months the way things are going so I've not got much to lose really) but Kansas - Dust In The Wind sums up how I feel about stuff and how very little matters that is material. Someone will no doubt call me out as being 'depressed'. Probably true but I've been there a long time and cope.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 11:48
Originally posted by omphaloskepsis omphaloskepsis wrote:

I'm a pantheist. 
Yes, we know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote omphaloskepsis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 11:26
I'm a pantheist. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 10:30
^Lewian's Three Laws of God. Asimov would be proud. LOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lewian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 09:59
(1) According to subjectivist statistician Bruno de Finetti, probabilities should be put on future events the occurrence of which can at some point in time be evaluated (because in that case a bet can pay out that is placed according to your probabilities).

The existence of god is no such event. At no point in time can a bet on God's existence be cashed out, therefore probabilities do not apply.

(2) For sure God exists as a human idea that has implications on human actions. This looks rather trivial, however it may be questioned whether there is any better existence than this at all.

(3) As a philosophical constructivist I tend to say that God exists by means of construction for the people who construct God, i.e., their belief in God makes God exist, but I'm not one of them (which I do realise is in conflict with (2); also those who construct God probably don't want this kind of existence but rather a different one).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 06:51
Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm agnostic. And it makes no difference to me if God exits or not. The world is what it is either way.

Hi,

I just find it strange that we have ideas about this and that, and don't look at the "sky" and realize that it could all be gone in a second without a thought or worry about anything mankind has thought about or worried about for thousands of years ... how unimportant and worthless a lot of that gibberish would all of a sudden be ... but we have this idea that we are bigger than the universe!
We are all just small cogs in a big machine mosh, with some smaller than others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Archisorcerus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 06:19
I just find it strange that after hearing the story of Mr. Redcandle, I began to believe in God.

Here is the story:

God was distributing brains to humanity. Mr. Redcandle misheard brains as drains, and he asked for a big, empty one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote moshkito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 06:04
Originally posted by SteveG SteveG wrote:

I'm agnostic. And it makes no difference to me if God exits or not. The world is what it is either way.

Hi,

I just find it strange that we have ideas about this and that, and don't look at the "sky" and realize that it could all be gone in a second without a thought or worry about anything mankind has thought about or worried about for thousands of years ... how unimportant and worthless a lot of that gibberish would all of a sudden be ... but we have this idea that we are bigger than the universe!
Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SteveG Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 05:04
I'm agnostic. And it makes no difference to me if God exits or not. The world is what it is either way.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 08 2022 at 04:01
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Please share with us your opinion of his scale.

You are right, I have focused on other things and have given up on this thread.

Here are my views in summary.

1) Richard Dawkins is a great evolutionary scientist but his militant atheism risks hurting science because he seems to get there (atheism) starting from the theory of evolution, as if science led to atheism

2) Having said that, he has every right to do propaganda for atheism.

3) This scale seems to me quite accurate on the positions one has in favor of the existence of God or in favor of his non-existence

4) I would make some considerations of a different nature.

Step 1 and step 10 of the scale are in a certain sense equivalent, they represent those who have NO doubts, have a granite faith in God or in the NON-existence of him.
I would say that in this sense, steps 1 and 10 are made by people who have given A definitive ANSWER to the mystery of existence.

I therefore consider the atheists of step 10 to be the same as the believers of step 1. THEY ARE BOTH BELIEVERS: THEY BELIEVE IN GOD OR IN A UNIVERSE WITHOUT GOD.

On the other steps there are those who believe but have more or less doubts

As for the agnostics, which Dawkins puts 50% in favor and 50% against the idea of ​​the existence of God, I believe that another issue needs to be specified.

the agnostic, in my opinion, is usually a person who says he does NOT know. Gnosis: knowledge, A-Gnosis equal NOT knowledge.

So while the BELIEVER AND THE ATHEIST (WHO I WOULD CALL BELIEVER IN THE NON-EXISTENCE OF GOD), think they can know whether or not God exists, for agnostics the problem is insoluble, but not because they believe that probability it's fifty fifty but because the agnostic knows they can never get to the possibility of knowing.

The attitude of the agnostic, in short, as I see it, is very different from what Dawkins says, and distances itself from both atheism and believers in God. 

Amos Goldberg (professor of Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem): Yes, it's genocide. It's so difficult and painful to admit it, but we can no longer avoid this conclusion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 09:27
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ Sounds too much like the no true Scotsman fallacy there to me, JD, that no "true" theist believes that God could be imperfect and fallible.
I've never met one that didn't believe this.

Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

[EDIT]He then claimed "not true Christians".... His definition of Christian is more exclusive than mine. I find that attitude arrogant, he made it clear that he and others like him is one of the chosen and all others will be damned. Well, damn him.
Agreed, I always find it funny when I hear them (evangelicals?) say dumb 5hit like "Well they aren't really christian" or "They're the wrong kind of christian". It seems to just implode the whole concept of what christianity is supposed to be, loving, accepting, inviting.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 09:00
Originally posted by chopper chopper wrote:

Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Very thoughtful post, Greg. I agree with all of it.

There is too much suffering in the world and religious groups have caused too much war and death.

I have mentally and physically disabled sister. She is now 68 and can do nothing for herself. It's heartbreaking to watch and because I've seen this deterioration my whole life it has firmly made me an atheist.

Sorry to hear that. I'm with Stephen Fry who said something like "if there is a God why did he make a beetle that burrows in children's eyeballs?".
Thanks, Chopper. I agree with Stephen Fry's statement and the following song.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 08:05
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 07:40
^ Sounds too much like the no true Scotsman fallacy there to me, JD, that no "true" theist believes that God could be imperfect and fallible.

While I was thinking more of agnostic theists and people who rate lower than the six that I fall on the scale, and I thought it would amuse, I actually have heard a wider variety of views on God for theists (and deists), including the view that God is not all good and God is not all powerful.   There are many belief systems, and individuals have different beliefs within a group. The strong theists who accept the classic Abrahamic God would I think be unlikely to accept that God is imperfect. I have spoken to people who consider themselves to be Christians and are not literalists. But I get your point, and I have had those kinds of discussions before too.

On a tangential note to the no true theist point, some time back I was talking with a born again who was claiming that Catholics were not Christians. Funny me the non-Christian (well, I still consider myself to be a kind of cultural Christian) arguing this, but it offended me. He then claimed "not true Christians".... His definition of Christian is more exclusive than mine. I find that attitude arrogant, he made it clear that he and others like him is one of the chosen and all others will be damned. Well, damn him.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 07:17
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

^ Some of a more theistic bent than I might say that an imperfect designer led to imperfect designs and imperfect conceptions of God. :)[EDIT]
The problem here is that a truly theistic person views 'god' as perfect and infallible. That's a feature of their belief. I know this because most of the debates I have with true believers starts with me asking them "Do you believe that god is a perfect being?" I've yet to find anyone say no. I won't get into the deep dive of my argument here because I haven't even had breakfast yet, but it doesn't take long for their arguments to start falling apart and that's when they revert to the 'I have faith' response abandoning any sense of logic.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote chopper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 06:56
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Very thoughtful post, Greg. I agree with all of it.

There is too much suffering in the world and religious groups have caused too much war and death.

I have mentally and physically disabled sister. She is now 68 and can do nothing for herself. It's heartbreaking to watch and because I've seen this deterioration my whole life it has firmly made me an atheist.

Sorry to hear that. I'm with Stephen Fry who said something like "if there is a God why did he make a beetle that burrows in children's eyeballs?".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 06:50
^ Some of a more theistic bent than I might say that an imperfect designer led to imperfect designs and imperfect conceptions of God. :)

^^ Certainly the God belief in others is very important to him due to the affect that he sees of religions and superstitious beliefs. I'm sure he has an interesting history with the religious and religion from an early age. Ignoring God, or concepts of God, would have been much easier for him had he been able to ignore superstitious people. It's not surprising that he would want to turn around anti-evolutionists and anti-science people, or at east maybe have some effect in getting those to question their beliefs and promote rationalism and scepticism. He can't force them to believe what he wants, and in fact I would say that those he is trying to get through to have dealt with far heavier indoctrination by the religious, and have an echo chamber effect to confirm their own views/ biases from their communities. I don't like belittling people, but promoting rationalism and empiricism is I think beneficial, and one is up against a lot of opposition.   I would hate to see atheists burning people at the stake for their theism. Don't think many atheists would be willing to organise and blow themselves up with others for their noble cause, or, as evolutionists, murder cartoonists for their depictions of Charles Darwin. I mention that because it was with the Charlie Hebdo massacre and later Paris attacks that I gained a much bigger concern over the potential harmfulness of religions. Where I live is obviously getting more and more religious, and before that I was faced with my wife's friends. I have never told them about my lack of belief in God, but they talk about God a lot and have some views that to me are odious and arrogant in a way.

-----------------------

By the way, some have been confused when I have referred to myself as an atheist since I am also agnostic and actually have told me that I am confused and I am just agnostic. Atheism means without theism, and I fall into that as I lack belief in God, and I am agnostic on a great many things including lacking knowledge if God exists. It's an interesting and poignant issue for me particularly because of my experience with the religious having being raised Anglican, and having married a Pentecostal Christian -- my wife would probably be a two on the scale. She was pretty hardcore I think but not as full-on as her friends, and she did lots of missions. That she married me says something, although she claims that it was only for my body. :( Some are atheists because we have not been exposed to theism or are not that exposed to theistic thinking - ignorance of theism rather than rejecting theism.

First post before I had my coffee, and I'm not inclined to edit, if it seems even more rambling than usual.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote I prophesy disaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 02 2022 at 03:47
Originally posted by Logan Logan wrote:

One can define God into existence.
 
This.
 
However, I think it is interesting to consider the nature of a creator based on the nature of the creation. For example, I consider it to be rather odd that the rare element iodine is an essential nutrient that is used by the body to form a hormone. I think it is reasonable to assume that good design principles would include only using rare materials for functions that cannot be performed otherwise. An even more revealing example is the genetic coding for the amino acid selenocysteine, which is not one of the 20 standard amino acids. The genetic code for the 20 standard amino acids occupies all of the 64 possible codons available for encoding amino acids, and thus selenocysteine requires a rather elaborate encoding mechanism, even though additional amino acids could have been encoded in the standard way. I interpret this as a lack of foresight in a designer as the rather elaborate encoding mechanism seems like a workaround solution.
 

No, I know how to behave in the restaurant now, I don't tear at the meat with my hands. If I've become a man of the world somehow, that's not necessarily to say I'm a worldly man.
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