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How important are lyrics to you? |
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Lewian 
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14664 |
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 Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:41 |
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An important point that I'd like to add to what I had written before is that the positive impact of lyrics relies on fitting the music and being sung in a way that fits the message/emotion they convey. When I'm listening even their meaning should ideally become "one" with the music.
Edited by Lewian - June 26 2021 at 04:42 |
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SteveG
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Joined: April 11 2014 Location: Kyiv In Spirit Status: Offline Points: 20602 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:40 |
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My parents were ultra left leaning liberals who loved left wing folkies like Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger. So I picked up an appreciation of the genre quite young, which was transferred to 60s folkies like Phil Ochs and Dylan. The lyrics of that era's protest music was especially important to me, so that carried over to some prog groups like the Strawbs and Renaissance, which dealt with some social issues, as well as telling good stories. It also made listening to the babbling of Jon Anderson quite a challenge at times. While I enjoy many prog artists for just their musical abilities, the better lyrical artists have a special place in my level of appreciation.
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:39 |
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Yes, it is maybe the guttural nature of the German and Dutch languages, but there are some Dutch and German dialects that are smoother and softer. It is maybe a question of "fitting better" specific types of music, but somehow I'm not really convinced by this (is it more because of habit and what we are more used to?). Another example: Arab is another guttural language, but the singing can be very beautiful too... I love (too) hearing the Roman languages, French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Romanian... all of them.
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dwill123
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Joined: December 19 2006 Status: Offline Points: 4460 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:32 |
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Instrumental (no lyrics). If lyrics are needed, I'll fill them in myself.
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Progishness
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Joined: December 10 2020 Location: Planet Rhubarb Status: Offline Points: 2565 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:17 |
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For me a lot depends on the emotion and passion conveyed by the vocalist.
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:08 |
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Choose more than one, then? There’s not just one answer that’s right for me, either. That’s why I made it a multiple vote poll.
I have a lot of Dutch artists and bands in my collection, but all are either instrumental or sing in English. I wonder if this is related to a later point you make, that some music is probably better suited to English sung lyrics than the native language. Romance languages are very musical by nature but, no offence intended, Dutch and German are not so musical to the ear. The only German language albums in my collection are angular and avant, where the language suits the music, and indeed I think sounds far better than if it were to be sung in English. But, Eloy (who you mentioned) is not the sort of music where the German language would fit so well, perhaps? |
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:02 |
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I should probably have mentioned. I made this a multiple vote poll, as it is entirely possible for more than one answer to to co-exist. I haven’t voted yet myself, but I could easily vote for:
Instrumental; Foreign Language (which effectively is no different to instrumental to me); Vocals, but not necessarily lyrics; AND Depends on the vocalist. Lewian’s answer seems to almost wholly reflect my own views. There are definitely exceptions where the lyrics really hit me, and/or draw me in, and/or are really effective and interesting, so that I’m not sure I’d enjoy the music so much without those English lyrics. But those are definitely exceptions. Bands like Magma prove that no one needs to know what is being sung, for lyrics to be meaningful and affective. And Francesco di Giacomo had one of the most expressive and impressive voice ever in prog. Like Magma vocals, di Giacomo’s were effectively for me, just one more instrument in the mix - but what a gorgeous and powerful instrument. I have found more and more, though, that instrumental music and/or music with foreign language vocals, allows me to envisage far more easily and effectively what a piece is about, than if it is sung in English. An aural equivalent, I guess, of the old saying - so that, if a picture tells a thousand words, a piece of music paints a thousand pictures. |
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 04:02 |
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Nice read, Nick! I will not follow up with a list - I'm too lazy for that - but looking at yours and thinking what is in my collection things add up quite quickly... So, yes, many different languages in my collection too and I like to hear foreign languages. I'm afraid, however, that I am unable to choose one of your poll options. It all depends... Music comes as it comes, with or without lyrics, and I don't have a preference for one or the other. I like hearing foreign languages (I'm constantly surrounded by one, since I don't live in my native country), but I don't mind when an artist/band is singing in another language than its/their native one, as long as the accent is not too disastrous. Most Dutch bands (my native language) sing in English, but I don't mind either hearing artists/bands singing in Dutch. As Dutch we are constantly confronted with foreign languages: English, especially, but also many others. It's a small country with a small linguistic reach and on TV most of the programs/films are subtitled (instead of dubbed), so we hear those foreign languages and are more used to it than people in some other countries with dominating languages such as English, Spanish, French... I live in France now since 20 years and it is quite surprising how little we are confronted here with other languages, compared to the Netherlands, and how few people can speak another language than French. Back to music, I like to hear singing in all kinds of languages and I don't mind not understanding the lyrics if they're sung in a language I don't know. I don't mind Frank Bornemann from Eloy sings in English (despite the accent) and I even think that it would sound less good in German, while I also love some German bands that sing in their mother tongue. The contents of the lyrics only become important when the lyrics are good. I mean, there are a good bunch of silly or just bad lyrics out there, but when the music is good, that's fine with me. The melody, the voice, the music are more important than the quality of the lyrics. But when music and singing are good and the lyrics too, than it is event better! The vocals are, as - indeed - just another instrument are also important for me. There are many bands/artists whose music I like very much but I don't like to listen to because of the vocals (e.g. Il Balletto di Bronzo), or even singers whose singing quality is outstanding but I can not listen to longer than a couple of tracks because their voice is fatiguing me (e.g. Björk on most of her albums). I'm generally put off by growling in music, but sometimes it fits well and I can stand it or even like it in a particular song... So, I could vote for all of your poll options... It all depends...
Edited by suitkees - June 26 2021 at 04:03 |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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Lewian
Prog Reviewer
Joined: August 09 2015 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14664 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 03:39 |
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Good question! About 1/3 of what I have is instrumental. Chances are this is far higher than what you find in most other collections. As a default I don't care about lyrics, although I'm not against having voices. In fact, the human voice is a great instrument and I love having a good vocalist. On the other hand, a vocalist I don't like can ruin music more to me than much else, so instrumentals always play it safer and have an easier job to make me like them, although a great vocalist may help music to reach my personal super top status (instrumentals are there, too, if not maybe at the relative frequency of 1/3). Consequently I voted for "depends on the vocalist". This also means that I don't care much in principle for the language, as I don't need to understand the lyrics to enjoy the singing. I like to hear some languages more than others though (sorry my Danish friends!). There are exceptions though. There are some lyrics that drag me in, and some I get interested in over time. So the content of the lyrics can occasionally have a positive impact and I even may end up finding them important in the odd case (Talk Talk's Colour of Spring is a great example, Animals is another one, and some of Peter Hammill's stuff). I also have far more stuff from my native Germany in my collection than from any other non-English speaking country, and in fact more German stuff appeals to me lyrically, probably because German lyrics connect more directly to my emotions and other languages need more brain impact (if they work at all - that's actually only English and to a limited extent Italian and French). Surely I cannot claim that German lyrics are better or even that German sounds any better than other languages! There is also far more German stuff that I hate because of cringeworthy lyrics I'd probably let a song in another language get away with more easily. So lyrics can matter to me, even though often they don't. Edited by Lewian - June 26 2021 at 04:37 |
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Man With Hat
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Jazz-Rock/Fusion/Canterbury Team Joined: March 12 2005 Location: Neurotica Status: Offline Points: 166178 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 03:15 |
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Instrumental for me. If vocals, I prefer either vocal sounds or a foreign language.
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I'm running still, I shall until, one day, I hope that I'll arrive Warning: Listening to jazz excessively can cause a laxative effect. |
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nick_h_nz
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Prog Metal / Heavy Prog Team Joined: March 01 2013 Location: Suffolk, UK Status: Offline Points: 6737 |
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Posted: June 26 2021 at 02:53 |
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inspired by a recent comment by Pedro elsewhere, I was thinking of how my attitude towards vocals and lyrics has changed over time.
When I was younger, while I have always enjoyed instrumental music, my preference was always for music with sung lyrics, and I only ever heard lyrics sung in English. Thus I was always able to understand the lyrics (well, almost always - some singers by virtue of their delivery and/or accent were rather unintelligible to me at times). I used to love to learn the lyrics to every song I listened to, so that I could sing along, if I wanted. I liked to think about what they meant, and if they weren’t obvious, to try and work out what they meant. Back in pre-Internet days, the meaning of lyrics was not easily discovered, so it was more of less working it out for oneself. I loved it when lyrics told a story, over a song, over a series of songs, or over a whole album. But for years now, I’ve not cared at all about lyrics - which I recognise is potentially quite offensive, because I know how much thought and effort some composers put into their words. The reason is simple, though. I now listen to music from all around the world, and more often than not, in a language not English. I have no way of knowing what the lyrics are, so the vocals for me are now just one more instrument in the mix. But I have also often found this doesn’t make a difference to being able to follow a concept, or even knowing what a song might be about. The way a vocalist sings can imply a lot of meaning, without knowing what the words are. It is the music, however, that I’ve found really tells the story on many an occasion. I have listened to several purely instrumental concept albums that tell the story better than many vocal concept albums. I think I’m at a point these days where I prefer either an instrumental album, or an album with foreign vocals, to one where the vocals are in English. This feeling is compounded by how often I struggle with a group because of the vocalist. I avoided Yes for years because I can’t stand Jon Anderson’s voice. The Yes albums with Jon I like, I like in spite of his vocals, and I would far rather Yes were an instrumental band. I love King Crimson’s Lizard, but Jon Anderson completely ruins the first part of the piece for me with his god-awful voice. Likewise, for many years I just couldn’t get into any form of extreme metal with harsh vocals. Someone might play something, and I’d think it was ok until the vocals kicked in. I wouldn’t go so far as to say I hated extreme metal, but I certainly avoided it. However, I knew there was some really good music in there, if I could just open my ears. It was Opeth who were eventually my way into extreme metal. I still don’t like harsh vocals, but I can tolerate them - and I now have a good deal of extreme metal in my collection. But, again, it’s in spite of the vocals. Pedro mentioned he thought he had about 20 different languages in his music collection, which inspired me to see what I have in mine. I’m sure to have missed some, because to come up with the list, I was simply flicking through my iPad. So not only would it have been easy to flick past an artist or band which has foreign language vocals, but if they’re not on my iPod, I won’t even have thought about them. There are also several bands that have their own made up language, but rather than list them separately, I’ve just combined them. That will probably upset some people, but hey - upsetting some people seems to be inevitable in any discussion on PA! (Also, it should be noted that languages such as French, Portuguese and Spanish can be very different depending on where in the world they are spoken, so bear that in mind when you come across them. Similarly, there are about 12 “main” Indonesian languages, and something like 700 Indonesian languages overall. And I’ll be honest, I have no idea which of the Senegalese languages is being sung in my collection either, so apologies too for not being more accurate, there. My inclusion of Indonesian and Senegalese is probably, therefore, as offensive as when Pedro said he counted Welsh, Irish and Scottish as English. I can only apologise for my ignorance here. Sorry.) Belarusian Catalan Croatian Czech Danish Faroese Finnish French Georgian German Hebrew Hungarian Icelandic Indonesian Invented languages Irish (aka as Irish Gaelic or Gaeilge) Italian Japanese Korean Mandarin Māori Norwegian Polish Portuguese Romanian Russian Samoan Sanskrit Sardinian Senegalese Spanish Swedish Ukrainian I initially thought I’d have a longer list, but as I was scrolling through my iPod I realised that although I have music from all around the world, often they are still singing in English (so while, for example, I have a few Bulgarian bands on my iPod, the lyrics are sung in English). I do wish more bands and artists would sing in their native language, as to my ears, it always sounds better than English. |
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Progishness wrote: