Most underrated prog band?

Lewian wrote: Saperlipopette: There's really not much disagreement between us when it comes to questions like whether experience and information are worthwhile, whom to trust when it comes to recommendations, and even that there are more or less let's say helpful or convincing evaluations of music. I even like Embryo (and actually I respect your music knowledge a lot). My point is just the term "underrated"; by using it you are basically stating that those who rate the band lower than you get it wrong, without any assessment why they're rating it lower, and probably without even knowing the vast majority who rates them lower and their reasons for it. Even if 99% of these fulfill your criteria for being uninformed ignorants, you are sl*g.ing off the remaining 1% wrongly and uselessly, because you could easily get your point across without doing that. Now obviously people do this all the time and it's not a crime, so go on doing it if you must. It won't stop me from checking out the supposedly underrated stuff, however I maintain that the statement ultimately doesn't say anything more than "many people like them less than I do". (Which in fact is quite something if said by somebody with musicality, authority, experience, intelligence, whatever.) Or actually it does, it also says "I want my statement to sound more authoritative than it would if I just referred to my taste". You could do without, really.

Haha I know I got those tendencies I'm well aware. I'm worse than Moshkito, really. It doesn't make me look very sympathetic and in combination with laziness i suppose (writing in english takes too darn long!) neither very impressive. But I'm not gonna pretend I think in another way than I actually do. Whenever someone sl*g. off jazz and think their rock bands are much superior - I don't think that we are both right in our own ways and that its all subjective. I think that I am correct and the rocker (along with most other people on the planet) is wrong. I know I'm gonna keep on using underrated, underappreciated, overrated without backing it up. Those terms are useful and rings true to most of those I am able to communicate about music with. I've introduced hundreds of underrated bands and artists to hundreds of people over the years. I know what I mean by it, and so do others. To me that's personal proof of value and meaning of the term right there. And while you have a point - a point I was already fully aware of, I think you over-exxagerate the negative seriousness of using it. "Everyone" understands the meaning of the term, which is why it will never die - but "Nobody" agrees exactly how it should be used, which is why there will always be a discussion... just like so many other terms we use.

Lewian wrote: I think that one can put weight into the words by arguing well, coming up with original views and observations etc. The statement "Embryo is underrated" on its own is quite unaffected by whatever information and experience is behind it. (Information and experience by the way are not enough; there are people who use all their information and experience just to confirm whatever view they have held for the last 25 years.)

No it isn't backed up by anything - nobody asked and it timeconsuming. The simple statement and our discussion are two different things. I'm not talking in absolutes only in general (what else is possible?): based on experience I trust an experienced listened over an inexperienced and its proven wisely in say nine out of ten times. lol. Btw the sort of experience I'm thinking of has to be broad an openminded - not someone with 3000 NWOBHM-albums and nothing else.

 

Lewian wrote: What's the difference then between "I believe it's so good that it should be rated higher" and "I like it a lot, and many don't"?

We're discussing art and not science of course but for me the difference is rather what knowledge or lack of are those statements based on. Someone who hasn't heard much is more likely to make uninformed statements than someone who's heard and knows a lot. Although one can never be objectively "correct" in the same sense you can be about math - I trust that knowledge and experience gives you weight behind your words and opinions on art as well. I believe more in this than a more relativist view regarding both art and opinions. 

^Either one has to be allowed to state things that one believes to be correct - based on say... knowledge and experience - or I don't really see much point in visiting a discussion board at all. I know that on this forum "Embryo is underrated" is a more informed thing to write than "Yes is underrated". If someone disagrees with me, well I don't mind (and I know I'm right).

^You missed the point. Although AFlowerCrimson writes that "Yes are underrated" and that feels pointless to most of us - it doesn't mean "Embryo is underrated" can't be a sensible and meaningful statement.

Lewian wrote: In this spirit I'm rather happy that in this thread even Yes qualify as underrated, because that comment has ultimately taken the last remaining shimmer of an illusion out of the idea that the concept could actually mean anything sensible. I think it was AFlowerKingCrimson, so congratulations for that posting!

So if I state wrongly that "The Beatles weren't very popular" does the concept of "popular" become pointless from now on? We won't have many concepts left if this was the case.

irrelevant wrote: handwrist wrote: Gilgamesh. IMO their self titled is one of the best albums ever made. I love both of their albums! The second one doesn't seem to get as much love (esp. on PA), but I think it may even be better. One of my favourite bands these days.

I like the second one better too, though both are great. As is Arriving Twice, for that matter.

RIP Alan

handwrist wrote: Gilgamesh. IMO their self titled is one of the best albums ever made.

Lewian wrote: Logan wrote:     For those who haven't read through the posts here, like I said "I wrote it with some humorous intent to illustrate how I use the term underrated".   Ooops. Proper reading is an underrated skill...

Proper clear writing is also an underrated skill... Well, I rate it highly, I'm just not terribly good at it.

I just buried my explanation at the bottom of another post I made here about Nightwish. Mea culpa for being misleading. Quoting said review after writing "The following is a review of King Crimson's In the Court of the Crimson King. It does not prove a great illustration, but it gets some things wrong, so I would argue that this one star review underrates the album" is very misleading. So, then I would argue with myself that I not only misrepresented In the Court, but Prog, music and reality. I did quite like "...unless Prog is short for microwave oven. In fact, it's not even music at all cause it's just noise, and music cannot be noise... It doesn't have notes, just noises, and noise is not musical so this is not music." And "[those who appreciate it] are not cool and they are all liars since they are not even real people and this music is not cool, and it is not even music, so how could it be cool and how would be people who do not exist in the truest reality that is in my world even know? It makes no sense." It makes no sense, indeed. ;)

Anyway, I should have mentioned in that post that I wrote it as an example of the kind of underrating that I was writing about. If just one person has underrated the significance/ merit of an album, then I would argue that it is underrated.   Most everything we know is underrated and overrated by some in some respect. I took some grief when I claimed that the Beatles get too much credit, but I would also claim that some don't give enough credit to the Beatles.   It was a rather underhanded title since I wasn't so much interested in the Beatles at the time, but instead I intended to use it as a springboard to discuss notions of overratedness and underratedness. It was quite trollish.

When one brings out terms such as overrated and underrated, it does always lead to discussions about the terms themselves, which is important to understand where people are coming from. Side-note: my biggest issues tend to be surrounding terms such as liberal, socialist, communist and various "phobia" terminology -- by liberal I often mean free-thinking / open-minded, and when I talk of a phobia I mean a psychological condition that involves an irrational fear and is detrimental to the person with the phobia and is not synonymous with bigotry, though said person may also be a bigot. But I digress.

Underrated is a term that can be used in a variety of ways, but when I use it, I like to refer to specific claims where people are demonstrably and evidentially not giving something sufficient merit commonly out of ignorance and flawed, invalid reasoning. In this case I concocted my examples with The Flower Kings and King Crimson, ridiculous though they were, but I have seen various bands and albums being underrated by individuals making false or dubious claims and making specious arguments as justification for their estimations of worth/ merit. I know that I've done it before as well.

I expect when most people say something is underrated or overrated, they just mean that they like it or more or less than it seems that the majority do. I don't enjoy Close to the Edge much, and I seem to be in a minority here, but that doesn't mean that I think others are overrating it or that I'm underrating it. I recognise its significance, and I'm fine with people praising it, despite not personally being of the religious persuasion. But, to use an extreme example, if someone claims that Close to the Edge should be considered great by music historians as the first symphonic album, then I will say that they got it wrong and have overrated its significance. If someone claimed that that album in not important to progressive rock, and Yes should be drummed out of Prog Archives, then I will argue that that person has underrated the album and the significance of the band.

I like to look at specific examples, and I have come across dubious, and downright wrong, claims to, and arguments for, greatness for the Beatles, and some who I say demonstrably have unfairly diminished the merit as well.

Edited by Logan - June 06 2019 at 09:03