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BrufordFreak 
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 8192
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 Posted: November 01 2014 at 08:57 |
 rogerthat wrote:
BrufordFreak wrote:
In opposition to the original post I submit PA's Top Ten from it's List of All-time Greatest Studio Albums with their accumulation of nearly 26,000 ratings and reviews. I can assure you that when I joined this site in 2008 or 9 there had not been nearly a quarter of these numbers. Of course, in favor of the OP: this is a website dedicated to progressive rock in general, not just the metal sub genres. My top 10 list in disagreement with the OP's assertion: 1. The definition of metal is too ambiguous. 2. Led Zeppelin is a blues band. 3. Most metal, like "Hocus Pocus," makes me laugh and, therefore, is difficult to be taken seriously. 4. Most metal if listened to in order to hear all of its layers, makes my brain hurt 5. By "eclipses" do you mean "to place [prog] in its shadow"? If so, I don't see it. Maybe a partial eclipse--like at sunset, when I put my skinny fist up in the air between the sun and the rising blood moon on the horizon behind me . . . that kind of eclipse. 6. Masaru Emoto has scientifically demonstrated (Messages from Water) that metal music is deleterious to the integrity of structures that support health and well-being. (A moment of silence, please, for the Oct 17 passing of this compassionate human being.) 7. Christopher Bird (The Secret Life of Plants) scientifically demonstrated that metal music is deleterious and to the health and well-being of living things. 8. Metal artists must be without compassion otherwise they would not play music that purposely makes people's ears and brains hurt. 9. Life is too short to waste time on trying to figure out what metal artists are trying to say with their music 10. Metal is a passing phase that one grows out of once one figures out how to enjoy peace, quiet, and silence.
Am I right, or am I right?
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Point no.1 is applicable even more in the case of prog than metal. For better or worse, metalheads draw a firm line as to how far is too far away from metal. The confusion is largely a creation of the media and not the metal community.
Point no.2 is inconsequential to the distinction. No metalhead in their right mind would call LZ a metal band. Black Sabbath/Purple is as far as it gets. Even UFO, which do have a lot of proto-metal in their music, are not accepted as metal.
Points no. 3, 4,8, 9 and 10 sum up how non-prog listening music fans generally regard prog. Only in that case, they are supposed to be wrong and prog knows best, eh?
Even with my prog hat on, I would question the need to constantly embrace a "more is more" philosophy to music. There are a lot of prog rock bands that could do with learning how to express themselves with the fewest notes required. A lot of them indulge in overkill or, to put it less kindly, seek an excuse to display the full extent of their technical prowess. Which, in a way, is no different from metal.
I love prog but I cannot fathom why on earth would anybody want to listen to just prog all their life. That's just as limiting as listening to metal and only metal all the time.
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Touché!
But then, you couldn't see the tongue in my cheek as I wrote my original post.
Yes, classic prog lovers get a little myopic. And yes all the studies indicating negative effects of hard rock are equally applicable to prog--as it is too all pop and rock! When I was a kid growing up in Detroit, Led Zep was THE "heavy metal" band--with Tull and Sabbath on the next rung down! Seriously!
I, too, have been able to find joy and appreciation in all genres of music--including all of the metal sub genres. I just saw this post as a chance to have some fun.
Are we having fun yet?
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: November 01 2014 at 04:38 |
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Hang on, do people actually think there IS a prog MOVEMENT as of the present day? Yes, there are prog rock bands but it's not a movement. NWOBHM was a movement. Pysch rock in the 60s in America was a movement. Bay area thrash metal was a movement in the 80s. Playing bay area thrash metal today would only reflect a stylistic preference, not the rebirth of bay area thrash as a scene. I have watched a band play Bay Area thrash in a small club down here in India, no kidding. If prog actually was a movement today, there would be so many musicians and so many albums that it would be impossible to ignore, just as was the case in the 70s. As richardh said, there was some sort of a prog metal movement in the 90s. I am not sure to what extent that lives on either.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28039
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Posted: November 01 2014 at 04:29 |
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
richardh wrote:
It wasn't true in the seventies though unless you count Purple and Zep as metal. |
Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, AC/DC, Rainbow, Judas Priest and yes I count Purple & Zeppelin.
richardh wrote:
Metal was actually something that grew out of punk and heavy rock music. Best of both worlds? |
Er no, it came from the psyche & blues bands (Hendrix, Cream, Vanilla Fudge) in the 60's and evolved with Zep, Purple & Sabbath
richardh wrote:
Prog as a collective movement died towards the end of the seventies and was eventually replaced by neo prog and prog metal. It could be argued that neo is just a pale imitation while the true evolution of prog rock can be found in bands like Dream Theater , Iron Maiden and latterly Tool and Opeth. Sitting inbetween these are Threshold , Anathema and even Porcupine Tree. This is really where its at if you are looking at a movement All the weird stuff that is called prog including Radiohead is just very idiosyncratic music that cannot really be labelled so it gets called prog or art rock.Its not a movement though so can hardly be pulled together and be trumped by something that has evolved. Basic metal is not worth bothering with imo but presumably survives because its simple and is based on image much like tons of pop music. |
Dear God where to start, it died down at the end of the seventies, the candle was kept alight by some neo bands & went underground where the real progressive activity was going on in Avant, Psyche, Fusion, Electronic, and the various progressive forms of metal. It has re-emerged in the 00's & 10's with an incredibly vibrant scene across a wide range of sub genres which have nothing to do with classic Yes or Genesis. Just because you don't classify those bands as prog doesn't stop a large proportion of us doing exactly that.
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I have always thought there was a large distinction between heavy metal and heavy rock. Metal only got started with Judas Priest and Motorhead. Priest were the link band between the two.
Yes I can classify what I consider to be prog just as you can  , I admitted that my comments were a bit of a ramble and not meant to be too serious. Just stuff in my head.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
Status: Offline
Points: 9869
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 21:47 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
In opposition to the original post I submit PA's Top Ten from it's List of All-time Greatest Studio Albums with their accumulation of nearly 26,000 ratings and reviews. I can assure you that when I joined this site in 2008 or 9 there had not been nearly a quarter of these numbers. Of course, in favor of the OP: this is a website dedicated to progressive rock in general, not just the metal sub genres. My top 10 list in disagreement with the OP's assertion: 1. The definition of metal is too ambiguous. 2. Led Zeppelin is a blues band. 3. Most metal, like "Hocus Pocus," makes me laugh and, therefore, is difficult to be taken seriously. 4. Most metal if listened to in order to hear all of its layers, makes my brain hurt 5. By "eclipses" do you mean "to place [prog] in its shadow"? If so, I don't see it. Maybe a partial eclipse--like at sunset, when I put my skinny fist up in the air between the sun and the rising blood moon on the horizon behind me . . . that kind of eclipse. 6. Masaru Emoto has scientifically demonstrated (Messages from Water) that metal music is deleterious to the integrity of structures that support health and well-being. (A moment of silence, please, for the Oct 17 passing of this compassionate human being.) 7. Christopher Bird (The Secret Life of Plants) scientifically demonstrated that metal music is deleterious and to the health and well-being of living things. 8. Metal artists must be without compassion otherwise they would not play music that purposely makes people's ears and brains hurt. 9. Life is too short to waste time on trying to figure out what metal artists are trying to say with their music 10. Metal is a passing phase that one grows out of once one figures out how to enjoy peace, quiet, and silence.
Am I right, or am I right?
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Point no.1 is applicable even more in the case of prog than metal. For better or worse, metalheads draw a firm line as to how far is too far away from metal. The confusion is largely a creation of the media and not the metal community.
Point no.2 is inconsequential to the distinction. No metalhead in their right mind would call LZ a metal band. Black Sabbath/Purple is as far as it gets. Even UFO, which do have a lot of proto-metal in their music, are not accepted as metal.
Points no. 3, 4,8, 9 and 10 sum up how non-prog listening music fans generally regard prog. Only in that case, they are supposed to be wrong and prog knows best, eh?
Even with my prog hat on, I would question the need to constantly embrace a "more is more" philosophy to music. There are a lot of prog rock bands that could do with learning how to express themselves with the fewest notes required. A lot of them indulge in overkill or, to put it less kindly, seek an excuse to display the full extent of their technical prowess. Which, in a way, is no different from metal.
I love prog but I cannot fathom why on earth would anybody want to listen to just prog all their life. That's just as limiting as listening to metal and only metal all the time.
Edited by rogerthat - October 31 2014 at 21:47
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Polymorphia
Forum Senior Member
Joined: November 06 2012
Location: here
Status: Offline
Points: 8856
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 18:28 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
In opposition to the original post I submit PA's Top Ten from it's List of All-time Greatest Studio Albums with their accumulation of nearly 26,000 ratings and reviews. I can assure you that when I joined this site in 2008 or 9 there had not been nearly a quarter of these numbers. Of course, in favor of the OP: this is a website dedicated to progressive rock in general, not just the metal sub genres. My top 10 list in disagreement with the OP's assertion: 1. The definition of metal is too ambiguous. 2. Led Zeppelin is a blues band. 3. Most metal, like "Hocus Pocus," makes me laugh and, therefore, is difficult to be taken seriously. 4. Most metal if listened to in order to hear all of its layers, makes my brain hurt 5. By "eclipses" do you mean "to place [prog] in its shadow"? If so, I don't see it. Maybe a partial eclipse--like at sunset, when I put my skinny fist up in the air between the sun and the rising blood moon on the horizon behind me . . . that kind of eclipse. 6. Masaru Emoto has scientifically demonstrated (Messages from Water) that metal music is deleterious to the integrity of structures that support health and well-being. (A moment of silence, please, for the Oct 17 passing of this compassionate human being.) 7. Christopher Bird (The Secret Life of Plants) scientifically demonstrated that metal music is deleterious and to the health and well-being of living things. 8. Metal artists must be without compassion otherwise they would not play music that purposely makes people's ears and brains hurt. 9. Life is too short to waste time on trying to figure out what metal artists are trying to say with their music 10. Metal is a passing phase that one grows out of once one figures out how to enjoy peace, quiet, and silence.
Am I right, or am I right?
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No. 
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Rick Robson
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 03 2013
Location: Rio de Janeiro
Status: Offline
Points: 1607
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 17:31 |
BrufordFreak wrote:
In opposition to the original post I submit PA's Top Ten from it's List of All-time Greatest Studio Albums with their accumulation of nearly 26,000 ratings and reviews. I can assure you that when I joined this site in 2008 or 9 there had not been nearly a quarter of these numbers. Of course, in favor of the OP: this is a website dedicated to progressive rock in general, not just the metal sub genres. My top 10 list in disagreement with the OP's assertion: 1. The definition of metal is too ambiguous. 2. Led Zeppelin is a blues band. 3. Most metal, like "Hocus Pocus," makes me laugh and, therefore, is difficult to be taken seriously. 4. Most metal if listened to in order to hear all of its layers, makes my brain hurt 5. By "eclipses" do you mean "to place [prog] in its shadow"? If so, I don't see it. Maybe a partial eclipse--like at sunset, when I put my skinny fist up in the air between the sun and the rising blood moon on the horizon behind me . . . that kind of eclipse. 6. Masaru Emoto has scientifically demonstrated (Messages from Water) that metal music is deleterious to the integrity of structures that support health and well-being. (A moment of silence, please, for the Oct 17 passing of this compassionate human being.) 7. Christopher Bird (The Secret Life of Plants) scientifically demonstrated that metal music is deleterious and to the health and well-being of living things. 8. Metal artists must be without compassion otherwise they would not play music that purposely makes people's ears and brains hurt. 9. Life is too short to waste time on trying to figure out what metal artists are trying to say with their music 10. Metal is a passing phase that one grows out of once one figures out how to enjoy peace, quiet, and silence.
Am I right, or am I right?
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You reminded me of something quite true that Robert Fripp said: "Some people find the silence unbearable because they have excessive noise inside themselves"
P.S.: I had to translate the phrase from spanish as I don't have it in english.
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 "Music is a higher revelation than all wisdom and philosophy." LvB
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Rednight
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 18 2014
Location: Mar Vista, CA
Status: Offline
Points: 4807
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 17:00 |
SteveG wrote:
[COLOR=#990000]Public Service Announcement:I had fun with this post but I think it's time that members start to realize that PA recognizes metal genres like tech/extreme/death and move out of the Genesis/KC/Yes/ELP/Tull/Neo Prog only trance and wake up. The barbarians are no longer at the gates but within the walls. If the sub genre Progressive Metal doesn't register with people, what will? I think it's also insulting to the Prog Metal and Extreme/Tech contributors of PA who do such a great job and have turned me on to many metal bands. You guy's rule!
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Run for 'z hills!
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BrufordFreak
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: January 25 2008
Location: Wisconsin
Status: Offline
Points: 8192
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 16:38 |
In opposition to the original post I submit PA's Top Ten from it's List of All-time Greatest Studio Albums with their accumulation of nearly 26,000 ratings and reviews. I can assure you that when I joined this site in 2008 or 9 there had not been nearly a quarter of these numbers. Of course, in favor of the OP: this is a website dedicated to progressive rock in general, not just the metal sub genres. My top 10 list in disagreement with the OP's assertion: 1. The definition of metal is too ambiguous. 2. Led Zeppelin is a blues band. 3. Most metal, like "Hocus Pocus," makes me laugh and, therefore, is difficult to be taken seriously. 4. Most metal if listened to in order to hear all of its layers, makes my brain hurt 5. By "eclipses" do you mean "to place [prog] in its shadow"? If so, I don't see it. Maybe a partial eclipse--like at sunset, when I put my skinny fist up in the air between the sun and the rising blood moon on the horizon behind me . . . that kind of eclipse. 6. Masaru Emoto has scientifically demonstrated (Messages from Water) that metal music is deleterious to the integrity of structures that support health and well-being. (A moment of silence, please, for the Oct 17 passing of this compassionate human being.) 7. Christopher Bird (The Secret Life of Plants) scientifically demonstrated that metal music is deleterious and to the health and well-being of living things. 8. Metal artists must be without compassion otherwise they would not play music that purposely makes people's ears and brains hurt. 9. Life is too short to waste time on trying to figure out what metal artists are trying to say with their music 10. Metal is a passing phase that one grows out of once one figures out how to enjoy peace, quiet, and silence.
Am I right, or am I right?
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Drew Fisher
https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/
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dr prog
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 25 2010
Location: Melbourne
Status: Offline
Points: 2498
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 16:19 |
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Don't rate metal at all. Melodically and vocally atrocious
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All I like is prog related bands beginning late 60's/early 70's. Their music from 1968 - 83 has the composition and sound which will never be beaten. Perfect blend of jazz, classical, folk and rock.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: July 29 2005
Location: None
Status: Offline
Points: 24429
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 16:13 |
Nogbad_The_Bad wrote:
Metal eclipses prog from a popularity perspective only. As long a you are prepared to move out of the Symph - neo space into psyche, RIO, Zeuhl, Metal, Fusion there's loads of good stuff going on and plenty to explore. I like a lot of Metal but it tends to be the instrumental stuff with an avant edge.
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This (and the following two posts too)  . In any case, one may not be a huge fan of prog metal, and at the same time have left the Prog=Symph/Neo mindset well behind. While I admit to not being thrilled by most progressive metal (especially the one that has Dream Theater as its point of origin), I am left equally cold by most "retro" bands. A lot of the really great stuff that can be found under today's capacious "prog" umbrella is very unconventional according to traditional criteria.
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20848
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 14:51 |
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Behold The Arctopus
Combat Astronomy
Animals As Leaders
Zevious
Electric Masada
Alamaailman Vasarat
Mr Bungle
Guapo
Tool
Unexpect
Stolen Babies
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20848
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 14:47 |
richardh wrote:
It wasn't true in the seventies though unless you count Purple and Zep as metal. |
Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Motorhead, AC/DC, Rainbow, Judas Priest and yes I count Purple & Zeppelin.
richardh wrote:
Metal was actually something that grew out of punk and heavy rock music. Best of both worlds? |
Er no, it came from the psyche & blues bands (Hendrix, Cream, Vanilla Fudge) in the 60's and evolved with Zep, Purple & Sabbath
richardh wrote:
Prog as a collective movement died towards the end of the seventies and was eventually replaced by neo prog and prog metal. It could be argued that neo is just a pale imitation while the true evolution of prog rock can be found in bands like Dream Theater , Iron Maiden and latterly Tool and Opeth. Sitting inbetween these are Threshold , Anathema and even Porcupine Tree. This is really where its at if you are looking at a movement All the weird stuff that is called prog including Radiohead is just very idiosyncratic music that cannot really be labelled so it gets called prog or art rock.Its not a movement though so can hardly be pulled together and be trumped by something that has evolved. Basic metal is not worth bothering with imo but presumably survives because its simple and is based on image much like tons of pop music. |
Dear God where to start, it died down at the end of the seventies, the candle was kept alight by some neo bands & went underground where the real progressive activity was going on in Avant, Psyche, Fusion, Electronic, and the various progressive forms of metal. It has re-emerged in the 00's & 10's with an incredibly vibrant scene across a wide range of sub genres which have nothing to do with classic Yes or Genesis. Just because you don't classify those bands as prog doesn't stop a large proportion of us doing exactly that.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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Nogbad_The_Bad
Forum & Site Admin Group
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl & Eclectic Team
Joined: March 16 2007
Location: Boston
Status: Offline
Points: 20848
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 14:33 |
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Metal eclipses prog from a popularity perspective only. As long a you are prepared to move out of the Symph - neo space into psyche, RIO, Zeuhl, Metal, Fusion there's loads of good stuff going on and plenty to explore. I like a lot of Metal but it tends to be the instrumental stuff with an avant edge.
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Ian
Host of the Post-Avant Jazzcore Happy Hour on Progrock.com
https://podcasts.progrock.com/post-avant-jazzcore-happy-hour/
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bloodnarfer
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 15 2010
Location: Austin, TX
Status: Offline
Points: 2162
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 14:05 |
The only metal-heads I know are really into things like Children of Bodom and All That Remains. They seem to think metal is more complex, difficult to play, interesting, and musical, than regular music. They actually have a bit of an elitist attitude similar to a lot of prog fans. Most metal seems to rub me the wrong way at the moment, but I have found some really cool things in the post-metal and modern black-metal scenes.
Edited by bloodnarfer - October 31 2014 at 14:15
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CosmicVibration
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 26 2014
Location: Milky Way
Status: Offline
Points: 1396
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 13:27 |
Metal never gave me any euphoric chill factor like
progressive rock (Magma included as prog) and fusion jazz does . Once in a while i do listen to metal, however,
I can’t think of a single reason of how it would eclipse prog for me.
If metal is earthly pleasure then prog would be heavenly pleasure.
Edited by CosmicVibration - October 31 2014 at 13:30
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Prog Sothoth
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: May 03 2011
Location: MA
Status: Offline
Points: 1940
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 13:24 |
Thanks man...now it's time to slap on some Janis Ian and GET CRAAZZZYYY!!! 
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 31 2014 at 12:51 |
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Public Service Announcement: I had fun with this post but I think it's time that members start to realize that PA recognizes metal genres like tech/extreme/death and move out of the Genesis/KC/Yes/ELP/Tull/Neo Prog only trance and wake up. The barbarians are no longer at the gates but within the walls. If the sub genre Progressive Metal doesn't register with people, what will? I think it's also insulting to the Prog Metal and Extreme/Tech contributors of PA who do such a great job and have turned me on to many metal bands. You guy's rule!
Edited by SteveG - October 31 2014 at 13:03
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 30 2014 at 18:10 |
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^My wife keeps shouting Black Sabbath because we met at a Sabbath concert! Ok, dear:
Black Sabbath!
It's only one reason but for her it's enough!
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SteveG
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 11 2014
Location: Kyiv In Spirit
Status: Offline
Points: 20604
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Posted: October 30 2014 at 18:07 |
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^Ah, what was the question?
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This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
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richardh
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 28039
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Posted: October 30 2014 at 18:06 |
It wasn't true in the seventies though unless you count Purple and Zep as metal.
Metal was actually something that grew out of punk and heavy rock music. Best of both worlds?
Prog as a collective movement died towards the end of the seventies and was eventually replaced by neo prog and prog metal. It could be argued that neo is just a pale imitation while the true evolution of prog rock can be found in bands like Dream Theater , Iron Maiden and latterly Tool and Opeth. Sitting inbetween these are Threshold , Anathema and even Porcupine Tree. This is really where its at if you are looking at a movement All the weird stuff that is called prog including Radiohead is just very idiosyncratic music that cannot really be labelled so it gets called prog or art rock.Its not a movement though so can hardly be pulled together and be trumped by something that has evolved. Basic metal is not worth bothering with imo but presumably survives because its simple and is based on image much like tons of pop music.
End of ramble.
and sorry I didn't answer the question 
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Top 10 Reasons Why Metal Eclipses Prog
