The UFO Phenomenon |
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ArturdeLara
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 06 2012 Location: Faro, Portugal Status: Offline Points: 124 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 14:01 | |
The idea that all "real" ufos are experimental craft is refuted by a large amount of evidence to the contrary). I used to think like you until I started delving deeper into the subject.
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"Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr
"If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 13:54 | |
Oh not at all! Fiction books can be great, if we would despise fiction literature and cinema we would be living in a very boring world!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 13:28 | |
This is neat:
... and pause it at 100 light-years (about 1:30)
- the region of space shown at 100 light-years contains all the stars (and planets and maybe civilisations) that would know we exist if they had the capability to detect our man-made EM transmissions [radio/tv/etc] ... which would be a major technological achievement in itself given the relative weakness of the signals we radiate out into space and the dratted inverse square-law that they are subjected to. [signal strength decreases in proportion to the square of the distance from the source]. We also don't know the shielding effect that the Oort cloud would have on any signals.
To put that into perspective, with our best telescopes we cannot see all the stars in that volume of space and they radiate EM radiation at colossal powers - our Sun radiates EM radiation with a power of 400 septillion Watts (400,000,000,000,000,000 kilowatts) and it's not the brightest crayon in the box by a long stretch. Imagine now trying to detect a radio transmission of say 100 kilowatts emanating from a small planet in that 100 light-year spherical volume of space.
Why is this important? Well, to visit us an "alien" would need to know we are worth visiting - random chance is not cost effective even if they could warp space or travel by interstellar osmosis. Assuming that there are 200,000 stars in that region of space (estimates vary - 200,000 is above the best guess so far) then finding a technologically advanced species in that volume is very difficult - we know of only one. They would have the same problems detecting us that we have in detecting them, and the argument put forward is they would recognise us as worth visiting because of the man-made EM noise we spew into space, but even this is tenuous given the physics of electromagnetic transmission. In practically terms the ability to detect us also follows an inverse square law of distance - the more distant the "alien" planet is from us the less chance they have of discovering we exist and the less reason they have for visiting.
Edited by Dean - April 22 2013 at 13:30 |
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 12:32 | |
We could if our species hadn't made such a mess of itself. Technology is there.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 12:25 | |
It's useful to remember that we can't travel to Mars. And we belong to a species which have survived improbably long itself.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The Doctor
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: June 23 2005 Location: The Tardis Status: Offline Points: 8543 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 12:06 | |
To say nothing of Action Comics #1 and The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe.
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I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you?
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Jim Garten
Special Collaborator Retired Admin & Razor Guru Joined: February 02 2004 Location: South England Status: Offline Points: 14693 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 11:29 | |
You mean all that time I spent reading The Bible, The Q'ran & The Talmud was wasted? |
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Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 11:12 | |
There are plenty of books and sites about irrational subjects, astrology, the new testament, life spontaneous generation, levitation, telekinesis, devil possession or whatever. The existence of books on a subject proves nothing.
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Vibrationbaby
Forum Senior Member Joined: February 13 2004 Status: Offline Points: 6898 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 10:42 | |
It's funny they have perfected trans-dimensional travel but have to abduct us in order to perform medical experiments in order to understand how we proliferate our species.
Until the mothership lands on the lawn of the Whitehouse and alittle green man emerges and demands " take me to your leader " I'm sorry kids : NO ALIENS. |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 10:35 | |
Can I ask you, do you want to believe? The glib answer is No One Knows - but when there is a plausible answer within what is possible and an implausible one requiring what is impossible then the onus is on the non-sceptic to demonstrate that the implausible is plausible and the impossible is possible for it to be more feasible than the plausible answer. No one has seriously commented on "alien" motivation - all the comments on that topic have been derisive, flippant and dismissive. And... "Laws of physics new to us" won't change how stuff works, that's simply a poor understanding of how physics works.
Edited by Dean - April 23 2013 at 06:53 |
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dr wu23
Forum Senior Member Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20642 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 09:58 | |
A good mix of answers..some pro, some con , and some neutral.
I'm curious as to how everyone has come to their own positions. Have you read articles, books, online web sites...or are you forming an opinion based on cultural information via the media? I recommend these books to get a good overall picture of the enigma: The UFO Experience by Dr J Allen Hynek Dimensions by Dr J Vallee UFO's And The National Security State by R Dolan. Abduction:Human Encounters with Aliens-Dr John Mack While there are many books on ufos and the later abduction 'syndrome' , I found these to be thorough, well written, and fair minded. As to a few comments above about alien motivations....imo it's impossible to say why a truly alien species would want to visit earth or what their agenda might be. One can certainly speculate and the ufo arena is full of that.But if we had the technology I have no doubt we would be buzzing around the galaxy checking out the other residents also. Regarding the tech itself, again it's impossible to say for certain how advanced such beings could be. They could easily be 100,000 years or more ahead of us (or even a million years) and have discovered laws of physics new to us or learned how to bend them. I don't necessarily accept the ETH (though I have no doubt there are sentient races out there.)....but imo 'something' is interacting with mankind and has for a very long time. For me the question is what does it truly represent?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 09:03 | |
Really? All these have been explained - if you chose to ignore the explanations that is doesn't change anything. The human eye, especially at night, is very poor at judging distance of a single point of light that has no other reference points to give any indication of size or speed. An aircraft light, a planet such as Jupiter and a distant star all look the same size to us as we see them in the night sky - we cannot tell just by looking at a single point of light in the sky whether it is small or large, close or very far away. Even if it is moving we cannot be sure whether it is close and moving slowly or far away and moving very fast, for example the International Space Station takes 4 minutes to cross the visible region of sky compared to an aircraft that can do it in half that time and a bird in less time than that - the bird is very close and flying at 40mph (63km/h), the aircraft is in the atmosphere and is travelling at 400mph (630km/h) whereas the ISS is far away and travelling at 17,239mph (27,743km/h). This means that eyewitness accounts can be misleading and inaccurate, for example in the Rendlesham Forest event a high-speed meteor or Russian spy satellite falling into the North Sea 200-300 miles away can look like a slow-speed "UFO" crashing into a nearby forest. And in the 1st Phoenix Lights event a fast moving formation of high-altitude aircraft can look like a slow moving "UFO" flying at lower altitude and in the 2nd event a very slow falling string of (parachute) flares can look like a faster moving formation of "UFO"s flying into the distance. If you ignore these explanations then you have not achieved anything and certainly the mainstream scientific community will rightfully dismiss this as pseudoscience.
Edited by Dean - April 22 2013 at 09:04 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 08:52 | |
Utter bul*t, sorry. If aliens would have visited us (which is rather unlikely but I will not say impossible) they would want us either to know or not to know.
How funny that they visit us precisely in ways where just some rather unreliable people and in unconfirmable circumstances do experience the visit, but in no instance they allow uncontroversial experience by other people or instruments. Why would they do that? Do they want us to know that they exist or not? are they just so incompetent that they don't want us to know but they fail at hiding? Are they here just to play a game of hide and seek and have a laugh at us? p.s. I guess that 'unconfirmable' is not a proper English word, sorry but I can't come up with one right out of my head.
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ArturdeLara
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 06 2012 Location: Faro, Portugal Status: Offline Points: 124 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 08:11 | |
There are dozens, if not hundreds, of ufo cases which cannot be explained in any conventional means. Of course there are many hoaxes and misidentifications but they don't explain all sightings (Rendlesham forest, Phoenix lights and so many others are still unexplained). The truth is that ufos are a real phenomena (whatever their origin may be) that deserve proper scientific study and should not be treated as a pseudoscience by the mainstream scientific community.
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"Those who are not shocked when they first come across Prog theory cannot possibly have understood it." - Niels Bohr
"If you think you understand Prog, you don't understand Prog." - Richard Feynman |
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 07:58 | |
Precisely. Not looking too closely into this (and I haven't the time to see a 1˝hr documentary during working hours):Why ignore the Orford Ness lighthouse (which apparently can be seen from the forest) rotating on a 5 second period, which just happens to be the same time interval of the appearance/disappearance of the light described on the tape - why do none of the eyewitnesses mention seeing two lights (the UFO and the lighthouse)? [for example] Nighttime disorientation and group hysteria can account for quite a lot. The eyewitness accounts do not corroborate each other and seem to be somewhat unreliable, I'm inclined to discount any testimony given under hypnosis (whether you believe hypnosis induced statements or not, I don't). Failure of the authorities to take it seriously (for example the local police) does not constitute a cover-up or conspiracy. Much of the after the event analysis of the site shows strong indications of confirmation bias - they saw what they wanted to see - for example does this look like a mark made by an axe or a burn made by a UFO to you? Just because people chose to ignore feasible (ie non-ET) explanations it does not mean that the feasible explanations are false. Once a plausible non-extraterrestrial explanation exists the onus is on the "believer" to prove his explanation, not ignore the "sceptic" and his plausible explanation.
Edited by Dean - April 22 2013 at 09:13 |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 07:20 | |
What was the explanation for the Rendlesham Forest incident? It appears to have been left unexplained and sigificantly covered up from what I can gather. Then I suppose it depends who you ask. |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 05:21 | |
There is a good probability that somewhere in the Universe there exists life that is not of this Earth. The chances of that life being smarter than an amoeba is quite probable. For it to be at our stage of intellectual evolution or higher is less probable. If it is has surpassed our level of technical development is thus fairly improbably. Of it being capable of interstellar space flight is even more improbably. The chances of it finding us on a tiny wet planet orbiting a nondescript star in the outer suburbs of one galaxy out of billions of galaxies in the vastness of space is highly improbable.
That's not scepticism, that's just being rational. All UFO sightings can be (and have been) explained by fully understandable natural explanations not requiring visitors from other worlds - Unidentified does not mean Unexplained. |
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer Joined: June 22 2004 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 16130 |
Posted: April 22 2013 at 00:43 | |
Interesting subject.
The Rendlesham forest incident in the UK in 1980 is fascinating, and the testimony of the witnesses seems quite reliable and consistent. Please watch! :-) Rendlesham forest Edited by Blacksword - April 22 2013 at 00:43 |
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Atavachron
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65417 |
Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:55 | |
^ when I watch the old ST series I'm more impressed at how accurate their theoretical physics and space science was-- generally much better than Star Wars.
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TheGazzardian
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 11 2009 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 8740 |
Posted: April 21 2013 at 21:50 | |
Apparently there is theoretical science that is making theoretical advancements. I'm not enough of a scientist to know how valid this is but I saw it the other day and thought it was neat: http://io9.com/5963263/how-nasa-will-build-its-very-first-warp-drive
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