Evolution vs. Creationism

p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond) We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period. The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent. I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol. Again Micah (as I've mentioned in the Theist, Atheist, blah blah blah pick a label thread), this is only if 1) Miracles are of central import to Christianity (they aren't, and people give them undo focus, even in Christ's time) 2) Miracles contradict scientific law (in my opinion, they don't- with a couple of really cool noteworthy exceptions). With all due respect, I used to be on your side of this debate. Don't you think I've heard every defense for Christianity by this point? I was ''saved'' at the age of five. You either believe everything the Bible says, or you don't. No cherry-picking here and there, only accepting some stories as fact, while shrugging the others off as allegory. Of course you're gonna say that science doesn't disprove Christianity, because at any of the points in the Bible that science contradicts, you simply say ''Oh, well, that isn't meant to be taken literally''. I was simply answering the man's question the best way I knew how, and I stand by those opinions I gave. Dispelling false beliefs about the Bible is not "cherry picking," and I'm kind of sad to see you call it that.  Words either have meaning, or they do not.  But they must be understood in cultural context. Now what narratives have I "shrugged off" as allegory?  Idiom and allegory are not the same thing.  There are a few allegories in the Bible, but as far as I can think of, they are parables, and have nothing to do with factual history. I would hope I've earned a little respect in terms of interpreting Ancient Near Eastern literature. If not, very well.  I don't expect to be taken seriously by people who don't get that Christianity isn't about magic tricks.  Never was.  Never will be. I never said it was. I considered myself a Christian for nineteen years, my friend. I would like to think I too know a thing or two about it. Idiom, Allegroy, Parables, whatever you want to call it, all of that stuff is just more excuses for the Bible's inconsistancies and incorrect science. I know you don't believe that, but I now do. Don't belittle my opinion simply because we now disagree, thanks. If I said I thought Christianity was all about magic, I would have said so. But I didn't. What I am saying however is very simple: either you accept the word of God as fact through-and-through, or you don't. These days, however, you can't because too much of the Bible is being proven wrong. So what happens now is we all start looking for other explinations for why some passages exist in that book. I no longer accept that. Sorry.

Okay...but apparently you are lacking in knowledge when it comes to literature.  Idiom, allegory, and parables are all three different things.  I believe the whole Bible is true and is God's word.  No backpedaling from me...in fact, your accusing me of the concept is really unfair.

You can't tell me I'm incorrect if you have not heard my opinion.  You (and others) have painted my beliefs with the beliefs of others- those you have heard in the past.  Is that fair?

When I say "magic" I mean your and others' fixation on miracles.  You consider miracles something that violates scientific law, yes?  I'm telling you that definition is a Western one, not an Eastern one, and therefore not accurate at all.

Now, without derailing Mr. Progfreak's thread any further, how about you pop into the Christian thread (if either of us can find it) and start with one or two "things" from the Bible that are "being proven wrong?"  All you (and others) do is spout generalities.  Try some specifics...and please, only one or two.  We'd get nowhere with a hundred examples thrown out all at once.  If you don't want to, fine- but don't bother me with generalities.  Do you expect me to say after your last post, "Gee, Mr. Micah, you are right...the Bible is being proven wrong...I need to pay attention more"?

I may not have the answer, but I think I might.  And if I don't, I will say so.

Regardless my friend, I am not trying to convince you or anyone of the Bible's truth.  What concern is it of mine if God chooses you to salvation or not?  Not even my most brilliantly crafted argument can bring anyone "into the fold."  (John 6:44)

Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond) We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period. The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent. I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol. Again Micah (as I've mentioned in the Theist, Atheist, blah blah blah pick a label thread), this is only if 1) Miracles are of central import to Christianity (they aren't, and people give them undo focus, even in Christ's time) 2) Miracles contradict scientific law (in my opinion, they don't- with a couple of really cool noteworthy exceptions). With all due respect, I used to be on your side of this debate. Don't you think I've heard every defense for Christianity by this point? I was ''saved'' at the age of five. You either believe everything the Bible says, or you don't. No cherry-picking here and there, only accepting some stories as fact, while shrugging the others off as allegory. Of course you're gonna say that science doesn't disprove Christianity, because at any of the points in the Bible that science contradicts, you simply say ''Oh, well, that isn't meant to be taken literally''. I was simply answering the man's question the best way I knew how, and I stand by those opinions I gave. Dispelling false beliefs about the Bible is not "cherry picking," and I'm kind of sad to see you call it that.  Words either have meaning, or they do not.  But they must be understood in cultural context. Now what narratives have I "shrugged off" as allegory?  Idiom and allegory are not the same thing.  There are a few allegories in the Bible, but as far as I can think of, they are parables, and have nothing to do with factual history. I would hope I've earned a little respect in terms of interpreting Ancient Near Eastern literature. If not, very well.  I don't expect to be taken seriously by people who don't get that Christianity isn't about magic tricks.  Never was.  Never will be.

I never said it was. I considered myself a Christian for nineteen years, my friend. I would like to think I too know a thing or two about it. Idiom, Allegroy, Parables, whatever you want to call it, all of that stuff is just more excuses for the Bible's inconsistancies and incorrect science. I know you don't believe that, but I now do. Don't belittle my opinion simply because we now disagree, thanks. If I said I thought Christianity was all about magic, I would have said so. But I didn't. What I am saying however is very simple: either you accept the word of God as fact through-and-through, or you don't. These days, however, you can't because too much of the Bible is being proven wrong. So what happens now is we all start looking for other explinations for why some passages exist in that book. I no longer accept that. Sorry.

Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond) We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period. The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent. I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol. Again Micah (as I've mentioned in the Theist, Atheist, blah blah blah pick a label thread), this is only if 1) Miracles are of central import to Christianity (they aren't, and people give them undo focus, even in Christ's time) 2) Miracles contradict scientific law (in my opinion, they don't- with a couple of really cool noteworthy exceptions).

With all due respect, I used to be on your side of this debate. Don't you think I've heard every defense for Christianity by this point? I was ''saved'' at the age of five.

You either believe everything the Bible says, or you don't. No cherry-picking here and there, only accepting some stories as fact, while shrugging the others off as allegory. Of course you're gonna say that science doesn't disprove Christianity, because at any of the points in the Bible that science contradicts, you simply say ''Oh, well, that isn't meant to be taken literally''.

I was simply answering the man's question the best way I knew how, and I stand by those opinions I gave.

progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond)

We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period.

The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent.

I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol.

I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science.

Agree with you Dean... but you used the most evident behaviours... it becomes a little messy when you start finding some things that are not actually accurate to our little boxes we wanted to clasify everything in... but how is that elephants have their own codes to communicate through low frecuency vibrations over the ground... that's learning process... that means something to the discussion...??? Well, my point was with the argument that Progfreak said he dissetimated these facts in the evolution in great scale...

Negoba wrote: That would not be a safe assumption.

I simply said that I doubt it ... before raising it to "assumption" of course I would have to validate this doubt.

That would not be a safe assumption.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Only the genes are passed on - experiences are accumulated in the mind, not in eggs and sperms. Every new animal starts as a single cell, so I fail to see how experiences should reach the offspring by any other means than learning.

Lamarckism is the curse-word of evolutionsits so must be approached with caution. Some of his ideas are of value, unfortunately it is the learnt traits one that lets him down.

^ what you're describing is a behavior present in all seahorses of a certain species, and of course that's in the genes. The brain of these creatures is built in a way that it contains that behavior. What the post I answered to was about was knowledge of individuals.