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How to define and classify "Progressive Rock"?
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David_D View Drop Down
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Thank you, James B.

So, when we talk about the importance of historical path in connection to the best starting point for Prog definition, that means being a part of counterculture to be considered being Progressive. And when we think about what other artists to include under the Progressive banner besides the traditional ones, I'd say that being a part of counterculture must be regarded as an important criteria - not least for 70's artists but maybe for the later ones, as well.


Edited by David_D - December 07 2021 at 10:56
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

- Electronic music is not progressive, or, at most we should distinguish between progressive rock and progressive electronic, ... 

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I agree very much in history (and tradition) being at least a very important part of the best starting point, BUT it is a matter of choice how large historical scope we want to use. Because even if we to begin with say that English Prog and Krautrock were to rather separate historical movements, we can ask about how much they had in common, and as far as I see it, the answer is, they had quite a lot in common, both being a part of 60's and 70's counterculture. So, if we use a historical scope larger than that of somehow separate historical movements, we can talk about one historical movement, "the counterculture of 60's and 70's".

On that basis and in my opinion as a whole, it's okay to include in Progressive Rock meta-genre that kind of electronic music which can be said to have distinctive Rock elements, like in those albums:

Tangerine Dream  (D) :   Stratosfear  (1976)

Jean-Michel Jarre  (F) :   Oxygene  (1976)

Kraftwerk  (D) :   Radio-Aktivität  (1975)

Harmonia  (D) :  Musik Von Harmonia  (1974)

Vangelis  (GRE) :   Heaven And Hell  (1975)

Michael Hoenig  (D) :   Departure From The Northern Wasteland  (1978)

Heldon  (F) :   Interface  (1977)


(I'd like to tell you, James, that your opinion in this matter has made me reconsider it, and make my proposal for "Electronic Prog" sub-genre more limited, by excluding less Rock influenced albums like at least some of Klaus Schulze's and Tangerine Dream's.)

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That sounds rather negative, miamiscot, while I think, we've had some very good and constructive discussions here.
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That's a can of worms you just opened up!!!
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by cstack3 cstack3 wrote:

I agree with the late Peter Banks, we should call it "Dave."

Edit:
It may seem to me that you find my way to try to influence the defining process of Prog being maybe somehow dictatorian. If that's the case, I think it would be good to discuss it here.

How about that?
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

- Electronic music is not progressive, or, at most we should distinguish between progressive rock and progressive electronic, ... 

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

I agree very much in history (and tradition) being at least a very important part of the best starting point, BUT it is a matter of choice how large historical scope we want to use. Because even if we to begin with say that English Prog and Krautrock were to rather separate historical movements, we can ask about how much they had in common, and as far as I see it, the answer is, they had quite a lot in common, both being a part of 60's and 70's counterculture. So, if we use a historical scope larger than that of somehow separate historical movements, we can talk about one historical movement, "the counterculture of 60's and 70's".

On that basis and in my opinion as a whole, it's okay to include in Progressive Rock meta-genre that kind of electronic music which can be said to have distinctive Rock elements, like in those albums:

Tangerine Dream  (D) :   Stratosfear  (1976)

Jean-Michel Jarre  (F) :   Oxygene  (1976)

Kraftwerk  (D) :   Radio-Aktivität  (1975)

Harmonia  (D) :  Musik Von Harmonia  (1974)

Vangelis  (GRE) :   Heaven And Hell  (1975)

Michael Hoenig  (D) :   Departure From The Northern Wasteland  (1978)

Heldon  (F) :   Interface  (1977)


(I'd like to tell you, James, that your opinion in this matter has made me reconsider it, and make my proposal for "Electronic Prog" sub-genre more limited, by excluding less Rock influenced albums like at least some of Klaus Schulze's and Tangerine Dream's.)


Edited by David_D - December 04 2021 at 01:27
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
As far as I can see, though, high degree of reusing music done before is not only a part of the new Prog but of the whole Rock genre, as well. One can wonder about reasons for that but that is the present situation on the whole Rock scene.

We have to be easy and careful about how we say anything about the reuse of something that was done before,......

If you listen to some things, for example Patrick Gautier, or even Rachel Flower's albums (the first and last for sure) you will find what we could say a lot of influences. Hard to not think ... oh that's Jack ... ohh that's Stanley ... ohhh that's Frank ... ohhhh wow that's John Petrucci ... ohhhhh what? That was a bit of Miles ... and in the end, it was about how it was done and put together that makes her work so beautiful and exciting. We can't even imagine that someone could play all this, and guess what ... SHE DOES IT ALL ... and she's blind! AND TO BOTHER US MORE she produced and mixed the album! 

You gotta admit ... that's insane!

I must admit that my tolerance in this matter seems to be quite a bit smaller than yours. Smile

In general and in relation to myself, I have this approach "make a difference or why bother?". That is very common in the academic world, as well, so why shouldn't it be in the world of music?


Edited by David_D - December 03 2021 at 11:11
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

...
As far as I can see, though, high degree of reusing music done before is not only a part of the new Prog but of the whole Rock genre, as well. One can wonder about reasons for that but that is the present situation on the whole Rock scene.

Hi,

We have to be easy and careful about how we say anything about the reuse of something that was done before, since it's ends up like saying that Stravinsky did not learn from Beethoven or Mozart (probably the main stuff he studied in school!), and then did his own thing, according to the taste and feeling of the changing times.

If you listen to some things, for example Patrick Gautier, or even Rachel Flower's albums (the first and last for sure) you will find what we could say a lot of influences. Hard to not think ... oh that's Jack ... ohh that's Stanley ... ohhh that's Frank ... ohhhh wow that's John Petrucci ... ohhhhh what? That was a bit of Miles ... and in the end, it was about how it was done and put together that makes her work so beautiful and exciting. We can't even imagine that someone could play all this, and guess what ... SHE DOES IT ALL ... and she's blind! AND TO BOTHER US MORE she produced and mixed the album! 

You gotta admit ... that's insane!

PG is also very tough ... oh my that's 200 Motels ... ohh that's some Zeuhl ... ohhh wait what is that? ... ohhhh goodness me, who is that on the piano and guitar? And when you are done, you are exhausted, but will likely say ... wow ... that was different.

There is nothing wrong with "reusing", after all hearing another violin concerto is not the same as Mozart's right? Thus, hearing another solo is not the same thing, however, our conditioning thinks that everything is a copy ... and we lack the imagination to find the idea and vision for that moment beyond a comparison!

Again, how the whole thing is done, is literally impossible until such a time as someone can present a much better and more inclusive theory of relativity for what we call/consider "progressive music" which right now is in the hands of nobodies that don't really know music and are merely describing their favorite bands, and I think it is time that "fandom" by done away with as a determining factor in ART ... of any kind! Heck, more people see the Mona Lisa (for what? Her eyes moving?) than most of the bands we have listed will ever sell!
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Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

In that sense, trying to define "progressive rock" or "prog rock" is indeed an endless and probably senseless discussion. 

I find the problem you raise here very interesting , suitkees, and as far as I can see, it's about what's the best starting point for an effort to make a definition. I don't have any ready answer for that right now...

Now I think,  I can give an answer to the problem raised by suitkees. Historical path and tradition are very important elements of the best starting point for Prog definition, but a crucial part of those is being progressive (and not least ambitious) in the literally sense of that word. So, "merely duplicating" of what other Prog bands have done before is being Progressive BUT surely not in a very good way.

As far as I can see, though, high degree of reusing music done before is not only a part of the new Prog but of the whole Rock genre, as well. One can wonder about reasons for that but that is the present situation on the whole Rock scene.


Edited by David_D - December 03 2021 at 09:25
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

...
German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.
...

Hi,

According to Peter Michael Hamel (From Music To The Self), a lot of this had its start in the Schools of music that spoke "electronic" where a lot of music from around the world was being shown and taught and explained. And the thought is that the showcase in 1972 of all the electronic music really helped make the medium more wide open to the public, but the schools of music that pretty much feature many of the well known folks in the electronic field, are not only present, they became the better known of the folks.

What PMH suggests also, is that a lot of this experimental music has a strong link to a lot of meditative states and music from the east, and he explains it when discussing a lot of the different styles of this and that, specially those that we consider "raga", which turns out to be more "rigid" than we could imagine, and even I thought they were more improvisational ... which is likely the main difference with the rise of the electronic material from Germany, which, BTW, is still very much alive and going! And as good as ever!

Another source: Stockhausen

Hi,

Who also was one of the educators in Berlin, I think it was. I'm looking for a book on him to read right now. Two members of CAN also had him as an instructor for some time. 

In Italy we have another source, never mentioned, and of which the musicians are not even aware:

Giuseppe Verdi.

When I read Herbert Weinstock's "What is music", I remember Weinstock said that the feature

of Verdi's operas is this: every melody can be sung, you cannot imagine the melody without singing.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

...
German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.
...

Hi,

According to Peter Michael Hamel (From Music To The Self), a lot of this had its start in the Schools of music that spoke "electronic" where a lot of music from around the world was being shown and taught and explained. And the thought is that the showcase in 1972 of all the electronic music really helped make the medium more wide open to the public, but the schools of music that pretty much feature many of the well known folks in the electronic field, are not only present, they became the better known of the folks.

What PMH suggests also, is that a lot of this experimental music has a strong link to a lot of meditative states and music from the east, and he explains it when discussing a lot of the different styles of this and that, specially those that we consider "raga", which turns out to be more "rigid" than we could imagine, and even I thought they were more improvisational ... which is likely the main difference with the rise of the electronic material from Germany, which, BTW, is still very much alive and going! And as good as ever!

Another source: Stockhausen

Hi,

Who also was one of the educators in Berlin, I think it was. I'm looking for a book on him to read right now. Two members of CAN also had him as an instructor for some time. 


Edited by moshkito - December 02 2021 at 10:46
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Originally posted by moshkito moshkito wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

...
German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.
...

Hi,

According to Peter Michael Hamel (From Music To The Self), a lot of this had its start in the Schools of music that spoke "electronic" where a lot of music from around the world was being shown and taught and explained. And the thought is that the showcase in 1972 of all the electronic music really helped make the medium more wide open to the public, but the schools of music that pretty much feature many of the well known folks in the electronic field, are not only present, they became the better known of the folks.

What PMH suggests also, is that a lot of this experimental music has a strong link to a lot of meditative states and music from the east, and he explains it when discussing a lot of the different styles of this and that, specially those that we consider "raga", which turns out to be more "rigid" than we could imagine, and even I thought they were more improvisational ... which is likely the main difference with the rise of the electronic material from Germany, which, BTW, is still very much alive and going! And as good as ever!

Another source: Stockhausen
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Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

There is only one progressive rock aka prog-rock. 7-8 original, successful  UK prog-rock bands and their followers. Krautrock is NOT a progressive rock. Krautrock is developed by bunch of German bands and their idea was to develop the music that is different than British rock. Zeuhl is not a progressive rock, it's simply Zeuhl.

(...)
 
The best definition of progressive rock can be found on the liner notes of my favorite progressive rock band:

"It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary music at the risk of being very unpopular. we have recorded each composition with the one thought - that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred of our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this.

From the outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts on blatant commercialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial and fulfilling. All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste. "


I see a blatant contradiction between what you write first and then what you quote.
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

if you want to define prog music, you need to start from its historical path, and then decide how far to expand it.

I agree very much in history (and tradition) being at least a very important part of the best starting point, BUT it is a matter of choice how large historical scope we want to use. Because even if we to begin with say that English Prog and Krautrock were to rather separate historical movements, we can ask about how much they had in common, and as far as I see it, the answer is, they had quite a lot in common, both being a part of 60's and 70's counterculture. So, if we use a historical scope larger than that of somehow separate historical movements, we can talk about one historical movement, "the counterculture of 60's and 70's".


Edited by David_D - December 02 2021 at 06:33
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Originally posted by enigmatic enigmatic wrote:

...
The best definition of progressive rock can be found on the liner notes of my favorite progressive rock band:

"It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary music at the risk of being very unpopular. we have recorded each composition with the one thought - that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred of our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this.

From the outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts on blatant commercialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial and fulfilling. All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste. "

...


Hi,

Nice. Very nice. I imagine that a lot of us have forgotten this, and can only "review" and talk about music from the point of view of some comparison, and rarely do we get a personal feeling about the music that is not described as a comparative point. It's kind of impossible since your words won't translate as well otherwise, or mine, or anyone else's. I specially like "blatant commercialism" and I can assure you that I am of Guy Guden's school of the bottom 100. Mainly because the top 100 is not about the music anymore but their fame and how many fans vote ... acquiring the taste ... might as well tell the kid to eat that broccoli, or some of the foods that we hated as kids ... like liver and onions! It usually doesn't happen that someone learns to acquire the taste, but the music ... oh my gawd ... the music!
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:

...
German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.
...

Hi,

According to Peter Michael Hamel (From Music To The Self), a lot of this had its start in the Schools of music that spoke "electronic" where a lot of music from around the world was being shown and taught and explained. And the thought is that the showcase in 1972 of all the electronic music really helped make the medium more wide open to the public, but the schools of music that pretty much feature many of the well known folks in the electronic field, are not only present, they became the better known of the folks.

What PMH suggests also, is that a lot of this experimental music has a strong link to a lot of meditative states and music from the east, and he explains it when discussing a lot of the different styles of this and that, specially those that we consider "raga", which turns out to be more "rigid" than we could imagine, and even I thought they were more improvisational ... which is likely the main difference with the rise of the electronic material from Germany, which, BTW, is still very much alive and going! And as good as ever!
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I never understood merging different subgenres of rock and call it Progressive Rock. There is only one progressive rock aka prog-rock. 7-8 original, successful  UK prog-rock bands and their followers. Krautrock is NOT a progressive rock. Krautrock is developed by bunch of German bands and their idea was to develop the music that is different than British rock. Zeuhl is not a progressive rock, it's simply Zeuhl. Jazz-rock/fusion is not a progressive rock. Electronic prog doesn't exist. It's simply called electronic music. Psychedelic rock bands probably influenced/helped develop progressive rock, but they should not be included in progressive rock genre. Proto-prog yes, but definitely not in progressive rock.

The best definition of progressive rock can be found on the liner notes of my favorite progressive rock band:

"It is our goal to expand the frontiers of contemporary music at the risk of being very unpopular. we have recorded each composition with the one thought - that it should be unique, adventurous and fascinating. It has taken every shred of our combined musical and technical knowledge to achieve this.

From the outset we have abandoned all preconceived thoughts on blatant commercialism. Instead we hope to give you something far more substantial and fulfilling. All you need to do is sit back, and acquire the taste. "
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Originally posted by Lewian Lewian wrote:

Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.

I'm pretty sure Pink Floyd's early works and some other psychedelic music had some impact there, also the Beatles.

Yes, psychedelia (Californian acid rock and Pink Floyd) had a big impact on German music, but the psychedelia prior to prog (psychedelia published before 1970 and possibly before In The Court Of...)

In this sense. the source of German music is the same of that of prog music (psychedelia) but prog music also had as its source the symphonic pop of Beatles, Procol harum, Nice, and psychedelia was developed in Germany in a very different way than what happened in England, Pink Floyd of the years 1970-75 does not have much in common with German music , except perhaps for Shine on You Crazy Diamond.

This is the reason why I think the origin of Electronic music and Kraut music was indipendent of that of English prog.


Edited by jamesbaldwin - December 01 2021 at 16:37
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Originally posted by jamesbaldwin jamesbaldwin wrote:


German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.

I'm pretty sure Pink Floyd's early works and some other psychedelic music had some impact there, also the Beatles.
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Points: 5986 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote jamesbaldwin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 01 2021 at 15:59
Originally posted by David_D David_D wrote:

Originally posted by suitkees suitkees wrote:

Much of modern prog, in my opinion, is merely replicating what other prog bands have done before (so in that sense not progressive at all, but corresponding to what was progressive then...), and when the music is really "progressive" it is not necessarily responding to the characteristics of what was called "progressive rock" before.

In that sense, trying to define "progressive rock" or "prog rock" is indeed an endless and probably senseless discussion. 

I find very interesting the problem you raise here, suitkees, and as far as I can see, it's about what's the best starting point for an effort to make a definition. I don't have any ready answer for that right now, but following my usually question, regarding problems like that, I would start to ask what is the purpose of a Prog definition, what can it be useful for.

In my opinion,
the history of music, as well as of cinema or literature, is characterized by historically determined movements. For example, romanticism in the early nineteenth century, realism in the second nineteenth century, decadence in the early twentieth century, and so on. In Italy, in literature (and also in cinema), there was neo-realism after the Second World War, followed by the neo-avant-garde.

Now, if we look at the history of pop music, we see that melodic music with vocal groups is born first, then rock and roll is born, as a fusion of blues and contry music, at the end of the 50s, the true rock is born in the 60s. with blues-rock (and jam sessions), folk-rock, jazz-rock (The Beatles remained on the sidelines of these movements, touching them but not being part of them at all), and towards the end of the years Sixty also psychedelia is born.

Progressive rock, as a movement, was born as a development of psychedelia and symphonic pop-rock at the end of the sixties, let's say for simplicity in 1969 with In The Court of ... and was born in England, and then also developed on the continent over the years. Seventies (the Italian prog was born having the English one as a model).

In my opinion, every definition of prog cannot ignore this historical consideration, prog was a precise movement, every European group of the seventies asked itself the question of how to approach prog, it asked itself whether to make a prog music or not. In America all this has been little heard, and only certain educated authors, such as Frank Zappa, have wondered whether to make prog music or not.

For example, Tim Buckley never thought of being a prog author, he simply followed his own personal path of expansion of folk music, which may have contacts with prog-rock but which in fact has nothing to do with English prog folk (Jethro Tull, Strawbs etc.)

German electronic music and kraut rock have had a different historical origin from that of prog (which is English), they were little influenced by the English prog albums of 1969-70.
Irrlicht by Klaus Schulze, Electronic meditation by Tangerine Dream, Faust I, and early Popol Vuh records have little to do with English prog. Perhaps, we could say that some strands of this German "cosmic music" over time have merged with the English prog but in any case, the genesis of German cosmic music is independent from that of prog.

That's why in my opinion it makes little sense to consider certain groups prog, and if you want to define prog music, you need to start from its historical path, and then decide how far to expand it.
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