Evolution vs. Creationism

Mr ProgFreak wrote: ^ "Can't be true" is not what I said. "Strong contradiction" is what I said, and you're welcome to draw your own conclusion from the evidence. To me it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that instead of an intelligent designer, the force of natural selection is the driving force behind evolution. And since I'm not that good with words, I invite you to watch some of the excellent presentations on Dawkins's YouTube channel, or to read his latest book (The Greatest Show On Earth) which is specifically about the evidence supporting evolution/natural selection and contradicting creationism and intelligent design. I'll happily look at any other books that you might suggest - but only if they contain evidence. Scripture is not evidence.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: To me it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that instead of an intelligent designer, the force of natural selection is the driving force behind evolution. And since I'm not that good with words, I invite you to watch some of the excellent presentations on Dawkins's YouTube channel, or to read his latest book (The Greatest Show On Earth) which is specifically about the evidence supporting evolution/natural selection and contradicting creationism and intelligent design.

^ "Can't be true" is not what I said. "Strong contradiction" is what I said, and you're welcome to draw your own conclusion from the evidence. To me it is proved beyond all reasonable doubt that instead of an intelligent designer, the force of natural selection is the driving force behind evolution. And since I'm not that good with words, I invite you to watch some of the excellent presentations on Dawkins's YouTube channel, or to read his latest book (The Greatest Show On Earth) which is specifically about the evidence supporting evolution/natural selection and contradicting creationism and intelligent design. I'll happily look at any other books that you might suggest - but only if they contain evidence. Scripture is not evidence.

Edited by Mr ProgFreak - December 02 2009 at 07:12

Maybe we can consider the existence of both concepts : Here's Philosopher Bergson's theory :

The book provides an alternate explanation for Darwin's mechanism of evolution, suggesting that evolution is motivated by an élan vital, a "vital impetus" that can also be understood as humanity's natural creative impulse.

Dean wrote: Epignosis wrote: You can't tell me I'm incorrect if you have not heard my opinion.  You (and others) have painted my beliefs with the beliefs of others- those you have heard in the past.  Is that fair? When I say "magic" I mean your and others' fixation on miracles.  You consider miracles something that violates scientific law, yes?  I'm telling you that definition is a Western one, not an Eastern one, and therefore not accurate at all. As far as I can recall the only "other" has been Mike, and it wasn't in this thread. Also, your point about allegory etc. was also made by myself and Jay ... in the other thread - so the same opinion is held three different people with differing (and conflicting) views.

In context, Dean, I wasn't talking about about allegory.  Mike has frequently made the argument, "miracles violate science and do not happen, which is evidence that there is no God."  So have others (in this thread and elsewhere).  Besides the obvious flaw in that logic (God can exist without doing "tricks"), I maintain that most, if not all miracles do not violate scientific law as we know it.  I therefore felt the need to speak.  Hell, I use the word "opinion" with regard to evolution and Mike finds it critical to point out that "evolution is not an opinion or a belief, it's a theory..." (but doesn't address anything else I said in my argument, like that of evolutionists not becoming theists if "miracles" as he describes them were to happen today, thereby showing that his whole belief with respect to "miracles" is moot with regard to the existence of God).  That's what Mike does.  He dodges what is said and quickly jumps on some other "Christianity can't be true because..."

I am doing nothing more but clarifying my own position because people lump Christians together into this nebulous soup of belief (despite their being 100s of denominations)...

...yet Mike is able to get away with statements like this?

Mr ProgFreak wrote: "Creation" as described in the bible is simply hugely contradictive with the process of evolution, which is totally driven by natural selection and not at all compatible with the idea of a "creator" or "architect" guiding the process.

Um...

Epignosis wrote: You can't tell me I'm incorrect if you have not heard my opinion.  You (and others) have painted my beliefs with the beliefs of others- those you have heard in the past.  Is that fair? When I say "magic" I mean your and others' fixation on miracles.  You consider miracles something that violates scientific law, yes?  I'm telling you that definition is a Western one, not an Eastern one, and therefore not accurate at all.

As far as I can recall the only "other" has been Mike, and it wasn't in this thread. Also, your point about allegory etc. was also made by myself and Jay ... in the other thread - so the same opinion is held three different people with differing (and conflicting) views.

Mr ProgFreak wrote: Epignosis wrote: Dispelling false beliefs about the Bible is not "cherry picking," and I'm kind of sad to see you call it that.  Words either have meaning, or they do not.  But they must be understood in cultural context. "Kill all homosexuals". Please enlighten me, how is there any room for interpretation or ambiguity? The meaning is perfectly clear. Epignosis wrote: Now what narratives have I "shrugged off" as allegory?  Idiom and allegory are not the same thing.  There are a few allegories in the Bible, but as far as I can think of, they are parables, and have nothing to do with factual history. I would hope I've earned a little respect in terms of interpreting Ancient Near Eastern literature. If not, very well.  I don't expect to be taken seriously by people who don't get that Christianity isn't about magic tricks.  Never was.  Never will be. Christianity is, at the core, about magic tricks. It is about turning water into wine, about walking on water, about ascending to heaven (or being taken to purgatory/hell) when you die. Now, if you're saying that you don't believe the turning water into wine or walking on water parts, but you do believe in the afterlife ... please enlighten me, how is that not cherry picking?

Thanks Mike.  Rather predictably, you've disregarded everything I've said on the topic of miracles.

And "kill all homosexuals-" where did you hear me say anything about that? 

Oh right, you didn't.  You'd rather ignore anything else I said to go in another direction.

I'm going to bed. 

Argh, is it really necessary to have a quote tree ten boxes deep? Max should program a five stacked quote box limit, it would make reading these threads so much easier.

Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond) We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period. The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent. I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol. Again Micah (as I've mentioned in the Theist, Atheist, blah blah blah pick a label thread), this is only if 1) Miracles are of central import to Christianity (they aren't, and people give them undo focus, even in Christ's time) 2) Miracles contradict scientific law (in my opinion, they don't- with a couple of really cool noteworthy exceptions). With all due respect, I used to be on your side of this debate. Don't you think I've heard every defense for Christianity by this point? I was ''saved'' at the age of five. You either believe everything the Bible says, or you don't. No cherry-picking here and there, only accepting some stories as fact, while shrugging the others off as allegory. Of course you're gonna say that science doesn't disprove Christianity, because at any of the points in the Bible that science contradicts, you simply say ''Oh, well, that isn't meant to be taken literally''. I was simply answering the man's question the best way I knew how, and I stand by those opinions I gave. Dispelling false beliefs about the Bible is not "cherry picking," and I'm kind of sad to see you call it that.  Words either have meaning, or they do not.  But they must be understood in cultural context. Now what narratives have I "shrugged off" as allegory?  Idiom and allegory are not the same thing.  There are a few allegories in the Bible, but as far as I can think of, they are parables, and have nothing to do with factual history. I would hope I've earned a little respect in terms of interpreting Ancient Near Eastern literature. If not, very well.  I don't expect to be taken seriously by people who don't get that Christianity isn't about magic tricks.  Never was.  Never will be. I never said it was. I considered myself a Christian for nineteen years, my friend. I would like to think I too know a thing or two about it. Idiom, Allegroy, Parables, whatever you want to call it, all of that stuff is just more excuses for the Bible's inconsistancies and incorrect science. I know you don't believe that, but I now do. Don't belittle my opinion simply because we now disagree, thanks. If I said I thought Christianity was all about magic, I would have said so. But I didn't. What I am saying however is very simple: either you accept the word of God as fact through-and-through, or you don't. These days, however, you can't because too much of the Bible is being proven wrong. So what happens now is we all start looking for other explinations for why some passages exist in that book. I no longer accept that. Sorry. Okay...but apparently you are lacking in knowledge when it comes to literature.  Idiom, allegory, and parables are all three different things.  I believe the whole Bible is true and is God's word.  No backpedaling from me...in fact, your accusing me of the concept is really unfair. You can't tell me I'm incorrect if you have not heard my opinion.  You (and others) have painted my beliefs with the beliefs of others- those you have heard in the past.  Is that fair? When I say "magic" I mean your and others' fixation on miracles.  You consider miracles something that violates scientific law, yes?  I'm telling you that definition is a Western one, not an Eastern one, and therefore not accurate at all. Now, without derailing Mr. Progfreak's thread any further, how about you pop into the Christian thread (if either of us can find it) and start with one or two "things" from the Bible that are "being proven wrong?"  All you (and others) do is spout generalities.  Try some specifics...and please, only one or two.  We'd get nowhere with a hundred examples thrown out all at once.  If you don't want to, fine- but don't bother me with generalities.  Do you expect me to say after your last post, "Gee, Mr. Micah, you are right...the Bible is being proven wrong...I need to pay attention more"? I may not have the answer, but I think I might.  And if I don't, I will say so. Regardless my friend, I am not trying to convince you or anyone of the Bible's truth.  What concern is it of mine if God chooses you to salvation or not?  Not even my most brilliantly crafted argument can bring anyone "into the fold."  (John 6:44) Well, if the Bible IS true, then God doesn't have to ''choose'' me. I chose Him. I have been ''saved''. And once that has happened, nothing can undo that, correct? Otherwise, what would have been the point of Jesus dying on the cross? According to the Bible, you were powerless in your sin to choose God. No one does. So was I. So were all who call Christ Lord. Simply put: God has mercy on those whom He will have mercy (Romans 9:18). I really didn't think you were actually getting upset with me, otherwise I wouldn't have let it get this far. Forgive me. I never claimed to be an expert in literature, but I sure as hell know that Parables Allegory and Idium are all different things, my friend. The point I was making however was that ALL of these things have been used for the SAME purpose! To defend the Bible's weak points against scrutiny. If you think I am wrong about that, then let it be so. No reason to let this thing get any more hateful, however. I am not upset, my friend.  I am just speaking plainly- no hate involved.    But again, there you go with a loaded phrase: "To defend the Bible's weak points against scrutiny."  Such generalities and no specifics!  Perhaps it is your words that require scrutiny?  I also find it amusing how you are the one who hijacks these threads, then turn around and accuse us of being unfair to you. And here we are again.  Tenets of Christianity (as I understand them) may be attacked or misstated in this thread, but I am not allowed to voice a defense of them?- if that is what is desired, let someone say so, and I'll never bother in any of these threads again.  I'll leave all of you to dismantling your straw men if it makes you all feel better about yourselves. I offered you to move this discussion to The Christian Thread, which I started, out of respect of Mr. ProgFreak and you continued it here.  As far as I'm concerned, I've hijacked nothing.

Okay . . .

A man staying alive inside of a big fish's belly for days.

A boat being able to house every species of animal.

An ocean parting in two.

The sun stopping in the sky.

A talking snake.

those are all very specific instances in the Bible that many Bible supporters are brushing off as Idium or Allegory these days. Why? Because stuff like that has been proven impossible time and again, so they step around it now by claiming that those stories shouldn't be taken literally.

I'm not saying you yourself have done this regarding these specific things, but am I now required to look through the whole book and find every instance that has ever come under scrutiny? I was making a general observation simply because I didn't think specifics were important to the point I was making. Why should it matter which parts of the Bible have been re-interperated time and again over the centuries? The point I was making was that many of them have been reinterperated only when they have been called out as being impossible.

I really don't appreciate you lumping non-believers into one group like you did just there, either. ''All of us can feel better about ourselves''. Really, Rob?

First of all, I do NOT feel better about myself for no longer believing in the Christian God. In fact, I am in mourning over it. There is nothing I would lover more than to believe in Him all over again, but the arguments I have heard over the years on both sides have swayed me into Agnosticism. Do not assume that I am claiming not to believe in order to boost my ego or anything selfish. I simply no longer believe, and I'm not happy about it. I still believe it all to be untrue, now. Forgive me.

Bottom line: a non-believer is an individual, too, and speaking to me as if you are addressing en entire group of people is just as bad as when the Atheists speak to Christians that way. I'm a human being, and have my own individual opinions on things, and frankly it hurts that you would assume I choose to no longer believe for anything other than me wanting to know the truth. The truth isn't always happy, and believe me, I take no pleasure in now believing there is no God.

And just for the record, yes, I DO feel like you hijack these things. I have never once seen you NOT jump in the middle of these types of discussions. It's almost as if you lie in wait until threads of this type come into being, then you immediately pounce. No, I'm not saying don't share your opinion, but when I still considered myself a Christian, I hardly ever ventured into the Atheism discussion. It didn't concern me, and I figured if somebody wanted to hear my side of the debate, they could come into the Christian thread any time they wished. Likewise, now that I am Agnostic, I don't go into the Christian thread anymore. Why? Because I don't care if somebody else believes differently than I do. I really don't care. But now I can't even have a civil discussion about my own non-belief without you jumping in and accusing me of not knowing what I'm talking about. I don't appreciate it, Robert.

So say what you will, but jumping into a topic you obviously have no desire of even considering then directing the discussion elsewhere doesn't change the fact that you jumped in to begin with.


Edited by p0mt3 - December 02 2009 at 00:34

Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: Epignosis wrote: p0mt3 wrote: progmetalhead wrote: I have come across similar statistics before (there are also the anti-atheist quotes from Bush and the like too) and find myself scratching my head as to how the nation that pushes the boundaries of space exploration etc can be so (in what appears) poorly educated in Science. "That may partly reflect U.S. high school kids' dismal math and science scores relative to other developed countries, which to my mind underscores a home truth: the more you know, the less you take on faith. "   Every other person in America? Really??   (please: no offence intended I would just like to hear some opinions and thoughts on this from across the pond) We Americans do poorly in all aspects of education, not just Math and Science. Not because we're stupid, but because we have a failing school system. Period. The reason so many of us seem to be so uneducated in Science is because many of us choose to ignore the aspects that disprove our ancient superstitions (a.k.a. Christianity), yet we embrace those aspects of science which improve our every day lives. We're a country in transition, I believe. Somewhere along the line, we came to believe that America was a Christian nation. That's completely false, yet most of us seem to believe it. More and more of us are waking up, however, so perhaps one day our more prominent citizens and leaders will be much more consistent. I probably haven't even answered your actual question, forgive me. lol. Again Micah (as I've mentioned in the Theist, Atheist, blah blah blah pick a label thread), this is only if 1) Miracles are of central import to Christianity (they aren't, and people give them undo focus, even in Christ's time) 2) Miracles contradict scientific law (in my opinion, they don't- with a couple of really cool noteworthy exceptions). With all due respect, I used to be on your side of this debate. Don't you think I've heard every defense for Christianity by this point? I was ''saved'' at the age of five. You either believe everything the Bible says, or you don't. No cherry-picking here and there, only accepting some stories as fact, while shrugging the others off as allegory. Of course you're gonna say that science doesn't disprove Christianity, because at any of the points in the Bible that science contradicts, you simply say ''Oh, well, that isn't meant to be taken literally''. I was simply answering the man's question the best way I knew how, and I stand by those opinions I gave. Dispelling false beliefs about the Bible is not "cherry picking," and I'm kind of sad to see you call it that.  Words either have meaning, or they do not.  But they must be understood in cultural context. Now what narratives have I "shrugged off" as allegory?  Idiom and allegory are not the same thing.  There are a few allegories in the Bible, but as far as I can think of, they are parables, and have nothing to do with factual history. I would hope I've earned a little respect in terms of interpreting Ancient Near Eastern literature. If not, very well.  I don't expect to be taken seriously by people who don't get that Christianity isn't about magic tricks.  Never was.  Never will be. I never said it was. I considered myself a Christian for nineteen years, my friend. I would like to think I too know a thing or two about it. Idiom, Allegroy, Parables, whatever you want to call it, all of that stuff is just more excuses for the Bible's inconsistancies and incorrect science. I know you don't believe that, but I now do. Don't belittle my opinion simply because we now disagree, thanks. If I said I thought Christianity was all about magic, I would have said so. But I didn't. What I am saying however is very simple: either you accept the word of God as fact through-and-through, or you don't. These days, however, you can't because too much of the Bible is being proven wrong. So what happens now is we all start looking for other explinations for why some passages exist in that book. I no longer accept that. Sorry. Okay...but apparently you are lacking in knowledge when it comes to literature.  Idiom, allegory, and parables are all three different things.  I believe the whole Bible is true and is God's word.  No backpedaling from me...in fact, your accusing me of the concept is really unfair. You can't tell me I'm incorrect if you have not heard my opinion.  You (and others) have painted my beliefs with the beliefs of others- those you have heard in the past.  Is that fair? When I say "magic" I mean your and others' fixation on miracles.  You consider miracles something that violates scientific law, yes?  I'm telling you that definition is a Western one, not an Eastern one, and therefore not accurate at all. Now, without derailing Mr. Progfreak's thread any further, how about you pop into the Christian thread (if either of us can find it) and start with one or two "things" from the Bible that are "being proven wrong?"  All you (and others) do is spout generalities.  Try some specifics...and please, only one or two.  We'd get nowhere with a hundred examples thrown out all at once.  If you don't want to, fine- but don't bother me with generalities.  Do you expect me to say after your last post, "Gee, Mr. Micah, you are right...the Bible is being proven wrong...I need to pay attention more"? I may not have the answer, but I think I might.  And if I don't, I will say so. Regardless my friend, I am not trying to convince you or anyone of the Bible's truth.  What concern is it of mine if God chooses you to salvation or not?  Not even my most brilliantly crafted argument can bring anyone "into the fold."  (John 6:44)

Well, if the Bible IS true, then God doesn't have to ''choose'' me. I chose Him. I have been ''saved''. And once that has happened, nothing can undo that, correct? Otherwise, what would have been the point of Jesus dying on the cross?

I really didn't think you were actually getting upset with me, otherwise I wouldn't have let it get this far. Forgive me. I never claimed to be an expert in literature, but I sure as hell know that Parables Allegory and Idium are all different things, my friend. The point I was making however was that ALL of these things have been used for the SAME purpose! To defend the Bible's weak points against scrutiny. If you think I am wrong about that, then let it be so. No reason to let this thing get any more hateful, however.

I also find it amusing how you are the one who hijacks these threads, then turn around and accuse us of being unfair to you.