Do the Beatles get too much credit.. |
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Ruby900
Forum Senior Member Joined: April 03 2009 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 739 |
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Of course they don't, what a silly Poll.
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place". Rick Wakeman
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Mr.GizaRainbow
Forum Newbie Joined: March 25 2011 Location: miami Status: Offline Points: 18 |
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They totally deserve every bit of credit, they influenced so many great bands and inspired many others, became very popular and revolutionized music in a very short period of time.
no doubt they should get a lot of credit.
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"I always say that it’s about breaking the rules. But the secret of breaking rules in a way that works is understanding what the rules are in the first place"
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StarMan2112
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Dean
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If I could just take an hour of your time...
part 1:
part 2:
part 3:
part 4:
part 5:
part 6:
Edited by Dean - March 19 2011 at 07:49 |
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What?
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giselle
Forum Senior Member Joined: March 18 2011 Location: Hertford Status: Offline Points: 466 |
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It's not a case of credit, there wouldn't be any such thing as a rock group of any kind if it wasn't for the beatles. The only judgements you can make are to pretend they were only one of many such groups which is what people today seem to do. No perspective of history whatsoever.
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Phideaux
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All hail the mothership. We speak as one mind, we live as one source, we hear as one ear (but in stereo!)
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earlyprog
Collaborator Neo / PSIKE / Heavy Teams Joined: March 05 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 2134 |
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"Syd was constantly listening to Revolver when it came out. "
Thanks for the info. This supports my claim that "Yellow Submarine" was the inspirational source for Barrett's silly, childish psychedelic songs; The Beatles get too little credit.
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JeanFrame
Forum Senior Member Joined: December 01 2010 Location: London, England Status: Offline Points: 195 |
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Impressive detail in your post, so you obviously know what you’re talking about it terms of the recording dates etc, but in fact, the two albums were almost recorded simultaneously, in the same building. So the influences (if any) had already happened prior to that (or perhaps the Pink Floyd sound rang through the Beatles corridors in a smoke break?). It’s a well-attested fact that the Beatles, and Paul McCartney in particular, visited the UFO club regularly to see Pink Floyd in performance. There’s little doubt that John Lennon’s vocal mannerism in ‘I’d like to turn....you....on’ is pure Pink Floyd/Barrett territory. The section immediately following ‘somebody spoke and I went into a dream’ with those descending chord sequences of a circle of fifths is almost certainly Barrett influenced, not the other way round. Though as if to counter my own proposition, an interesting point you make is that Barrett himself was influenced by the Beatles in the first place. I can see the possibilities in that argument – the Beatles perhaps subconsciously re-filtering their own original influence – an intriguing thought! The other thing to say is that any influence there is doesn't apply particularly to the songwriting, it mainly applies to the arrangement. The whole tone of the 'Sergeant Pepper' album is UFO territory, though imbued with that wonderful gift of songwriting that was so unique to the Beatles. |
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Guests
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Q: When did Paul McCartney write "Silly Love Songs"
A: 1962-2005
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Floydman
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"A Day in the Life" has nothing to do with Syd Barrettl and the track was completed before Pink Floyd started recording
Pipers At The Gates Of Dawn Recording of the album began on 21 February 1967. "A Day in the Life" is built from three different fragments and the Paul section was from a different song that the Beatles decided to put in the bridge. The Beatles had been using that technique on songs like "We Can Work It Out" and "She Said Said" with the latter using a psychedelic bridge. If you read this book "Every Sound There Is: The Beatles' Revolver and the Transformation of Rock and Roll Russell Reising" there is a whole chapter on the Beatles influence on Pink Floyd. Syd was constantly listening to Revolver when it came out. Song like "See Emily Play" for one was influenced by the Beatles "Strawberry Fields Forever"
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17832 |
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Hi,
That's a tough call, really ...
They should get credit for helping bust the radio monopolies, but they should also get credit for creating antoher monopoly ... that is, in the end, just as evil as the first one that they busted up.
In the end, it was money that killed it all, and the "credit" was just an excuse to help the publicity machines. Sort of like Deep Throat ... the more another priest, or church, that was stupid enough to say anything, the more it sold! And the more attention it got! And it had another side effect ... it was one of the first videos to hit the market and sell millions!
The Beatles came up at a time when things were already changing around them, and they become a part of that movement ... and anyone that denies these "changes" in perceptions, the arts, and has never kept up with Film, Theater, Arts, Literature ... they are just rock press writers. They wouldn't know art from the stains in their shorts!
In that sense, The Beatles do not need credit for something that was already there, but they should help for breaking the "stereotype" in pop music ... and guess what ... look at the commercial crap today ... they are still pushing the "hits" as they were in those days, and in most cases ... we buy it ... we even find ways to write about it with some progressive something or other! ... rap is next ... and no one everheard rap the first time in a movie in 1968, right next to Mick Jagger in a movie ... and it's still ignored! Edited by moshkito - March 03 2011 at 13:56 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
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hobocamp
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Edited by hobocamp - March 03 2011 at 09:46 |
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JeanFrame
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Some staggering comments in these posts. I'm glad to know that some of the contributors are simply being 'provocative', though I still don't approve of that kind of negativity either. This is, after all, meant to be a serious discussion forum, not an amusement park.
There's no question that The Beatles were the single most importance force in the music we listen to today, especially in relation to progressive rock and the development from sixties music to seventies invention. At the same time, I would have to say that the Beatles had plenty of influences of their own, some of whom aren't given sufficient credit. Many parts of the fabled Sergeant Pepper album were riddled with straight takes from the Syd Barrett songbook. The central section of 'A Day in the Life' is pure Syd, almost a direct quote in some places. But there would be no discussion here at all, and no such forum, if the Beatles had not existed. |
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40footwolf
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I love how every time I say "I like the Beatles, I think they were fantastic and highly influential, I just wish a lot of the bands around them got the credit they deserve" everyone's responses is "OMG WHY DO U HATE THE BEATLES".
So, fine. You win, I lose, the Beatles invented music all by themselves. Whatever.
Edited by 40footwolf - March 01 2011 at 19:06 |
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Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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AllP0werToSlaves
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^That's really the brass tacks as far as I'm concerned. I was approaching it from the media/marketing angle before only because most people who rave about The Beatles breaking new ground tend to not take that into consideration. Never meant to raise a ruckus in this thread with my claims, just offering a different perspective on the debate! Great discussion though, I learned quite a bit from the vets in this thread!
Great post rogerhat
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
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Beatles may have been the first to find a rock context for a lot of things but there's not much they could have INVENTED music composition wise, outside the region of Indo-Western fusion (and maybe there were jazzmen who got there before the Beatles, I don't know). Besides, well, amusing though it may sound as an example, Bollywood composers were approaching Western from the Indian side already in the 50s. Often, they ripped off Western melodies or instrumental sections direct but not all the time and some of these early attempts at fusion were far reaching. So, Beatles were at the most approaching it from the Western side, fitting Indian melody into Western arrangements but the possibility of Indian and Western music synthesis had already been explored in some sense. They may have been ahead of many, many others in studio craft though and there, the claims of invention may be more justifiable. It is not an aspect that I have looked into too much as a listener and maybe others have more details on whether Beatles used these recording techniques for the first time or somebody else beat them to it. I wouldn't doubt - and I don't think you do either - that they were, nevertheless, a highly innovative band and have few if any peers in the mainstream for innovation and creativity. But whether every innovation credited to them is justified and was there really nobody else who had beat them to the punch is debatable. Again, that they popularized a lot of innovative compositional aspects and influenced many, many musicians to follow their lead is not in doubt and nor have you questioned it anyway. |
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chopper
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Excellent post and your last point about the 6 year period is very important - some bands take this long to make 1 album! Very few bands progress like The Beatles did (from effectively a boy/pop band making love songs like "She Loves You" to something like "A Day in the Life"). Can you imagine Take That doing the same thing?
You really had to be there to fully appreciate the impact that The Beatles had in their day.
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The Dark Elf
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It wouId seem that Beatle-bias is so strong among some posters here, that not even direct quotes from great musicians matter. I had to chuckle when you made the comment "Most of those are just talking about how much they liked the music." I would suggest that Brian Wilson shelving the album "Smile", Bob Weir saying the Beatles turned The Dead into a rock 'n' roll band, Fripp saying "My life would never be the same again", and Townshend saying the Beatles "inspired him to write", were quite beyond merely "liking" the music.
The Beatles were at the forefront of a musical and societal revolution. To say their influence was not profound is merely latter-day revisionism. I watched the Beatles' first appearance on Ed Sullivan show as a 4 year-old (as did most viewers in the U.S.). To say that the nation was enthralled would not be an overstatement. The first song I learned to sing all the way through as a kid was "I Wanna Hold You Hand".
I followed the Beatles' progression from pop-rock band to folk-rock to psychedelia to avant-garde and prog with an excitement that would be hard to explain for folks who didn't grow up in that time. But one didn't need a disc jockey to tell you that the Beatles had released a new album, you knew instinctively (even as a 6,7 8, 9 year-old) when you heard it playing. And by the time I was old enough to start my own band, the fundamentals I had learned listening to the Beatles as I grew up impacted my playing immensely. I can only relate what I saw and heard from a personal standpoint, but it is evident that theses experiences were very similar and shared by millions of others in my generation.
No other rock band had that kind of influence, and really we are only talking about an epochal 6 year time period (1964-70), which makes their contribution even more phenomenal.
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...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
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Yes
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40footwolf
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Most of those are just talking about how much they liked the music. Nowhere in there did I read an account that Tommy and In the Court of the Crimson King would not have existed if Sgt. Pepper's never came out. Influenced by it? Certainly, but just as much so by Eastern philosophy and free jazz.
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Heaven's made a cesspool of us all.
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