![]() |
|
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234 9> |
Author | |
JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
![]() |
Interesting. Thanks!
Made it easier when related to econ, and perhaps I'll get new insight in those classes by thinking theoretical physics
![]() Edited by JJLehto - April 17 2015 at 00:26 |
|
![]() |
|
Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
![]() |
![]() |
|
![]() |
|
Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
![]() |
^ We do not know if the 'banking principle' can be invoked to explain the creation of the Universe itself, but it is a real property WITHIN our Universe. In our Universe, equal-valued positive + negative manifestations of energy can (and do) indeed pop up out of nothing. No energy is required for this to happen, it happens spontaneously, all the time and everywhere. It is the result of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle and the wave-particle duality of matter which are fundamental properties of our Universe. Our Universe is built so that it includes the 'banking principle' as a fundamental property, the vacuum can spontaneously produce positive + negative energy manifestations (for example a pair of particle + its antiparticle).
Another example is quantum tunnelling, where particles can 'borrow' energy from the vacuum to cross a barrier as long as they 'pay it back' quickly. This allows particles to cross barriers which otherwise they would not be able to. Basically the 'banking principle' is a result of the quantum (probabilistic) nature of our Universe, which dictates that no outcome has zero probability. Thus, say a particle is in front of a big barrier and it does not have, by any stretch, the required energy to cross to the other side. Classical physics would say that without the required energy, there is zero probability that the particle can cross. But in our quantum universe the probability is not zero and indeed we observe that the particle does cross with a small but certain frequency, the reason being that it 'borrows' the required energy from the vacuum and quickly returns it. This is experimentally confirmed and is well-established science. So, given that the 'banking principle' is real in our Universe, these cosmologists stretch the concept and speculate that the same principle might be responsible for the spontaneous creation of the Universe itself.
|
|
![]() |
|
JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
![]() |
Ah money and banking, something I can much better relate too! My follow up, and where I still struggle, is: In that analogy, there of course the banks. How does this work for the universe? Since the theory states God is not a banker, (and indeed he feels it invalidates the need for one) what does it? Is it "dark energy"? Is this the "law" that allows the things to happen from nothing a la the banking law example?
Edited by JJLehto - April 15 2015 at 15:54 |
|
![]() |
|
The Dark Elf ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() VIP Member Joined: February 01 2011 Location: Michigan Status: Offline Points: 13229 |
![]() |
God is a...banker? That would explain the very low interest rates, the lack of loans, no refunds for bad service and the steep penalty for early withdrawal.
|
|
...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined
to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
|
![]() |
|
CosmicVibration ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: February 26 2014 Location: Milky Way Status: Offline Points: 1396 |
![]() |
I need to watch the video but when I contemplate the “nothing” I cogitate pre-singularity.
our current material universe -- stars –- gasses –- light –- big bang –- singularity -- nothingness |
|
![]() |
|
Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
![]() |
About the spontaneous creation of something (positive + negative in equal values) out of nothing, which under certain circumstances can lead to 'things happening', an analogy would be having zero money.
Assuming that you lived in a world where doing anything costs money, if you have zero money you can do nothing. In some sense you do not exist in that world, nothing will happen. But the laws of banking allow that your zero money can be turned into a loan of 1000 dollar and 1000 dollar cash in your pocket. You still have zero money, but the laws of that world also say that the combination of a 1000 dollar loan and a 1000 dollar cash allow you to do things, it allows things to happen. Both are different manifestations of zero, but while one does not allow anything happening, the other does.
|
|
![]() |
|
JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
![]() |
Again, layman here
![]() Your last two paragraphs of that first post were pretty much the point of his lecture, I'm glad it's not psychobabble and thanks for clarifying what exactly "nothing" is as he meant it.
|
|
![]() |
|
Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
![]() |
^ BTW, the key point here is of course number 2, the speculation that 'nothing' (zero energy) can spontaneously decouple into equal-valued positive + negative energy manifestations thus creating a Universe. While we do not know whether this is the case, the idea is inspired by the 'virtual particles' in quantum theory, which are briefly explained in the lecture with the example of them constituting most of the mass of a proton, with the 'empty space' inside the proton being actually full of virtual particles continuously popping in and out of existence.
Virtual particles do indeed spontaneously pop up out of the empty vacuum with zero net energy input, a pair of particle and antiparticle (positive + negative) which in most cases immediately annihilate each other. While virtual particles are not directly observable they explain correctly many observed phenomena so the fact that positive + negative energy manifestations can spontaneously appear out of nothing in our Universe is considered a confirmed fact. The cosmological theory extends this idea to the the appearance of a complete Universe out of nothing.
|
|
![]() |
|
Gerinski ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() ![]() Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
![]() |
In this context 'nothing' is not a vacuum (which is 'empty space'). It is the absence of Space, Time (more precisely of a Spacetime), and of all the energy which fills it. It is not sensible to talk about anything 'pre universe' since the prefix 'pre' assumes the existence of a Time. Our Universe is defined by the existence of a Spacetime and different manifestations of Energy within it. Spacetime itself is a manifestation of Energy (a negative one). What this theory says is that: 1. the total energy contents of the Universe equals zero 2. zero energy (= 'nothing', meaning absence of a Spacetime and other energetic manifestations in it) can spontaneously decouple into positive and negative energy manifestations of energy (one of them being the emergence of a Spacetime with a cosmological constant as the negative manifestation, and the rest of energy filling the Spacetime (dark matter and ordinary matter and radiation) being the positive manifestation. Positive and negative have the same overall value and thus cancel each other). 3. Such decouplings constitute the spontaneous creation (appearance would be a better word) of a Universe. Each such Universe very possibly has different laws of physics and possibly different dimensional characteristics, likely random (although there are different versions about this). 4. Most such Universes will pop up and disappear right away, in a sort of immediate annihilation between their positive and negative aspects. But under some particular conditions of dimensional configuration and laws of physics, a phenomenon called Inflation can happen before the annihilation, and in such case the Universe can grow avoiding its annihilation. Our Universe happens to be one of these (as it could not be otherwise or we would not be here to tell). What should we make of or call the 'whatever' the Universes pop up 'from' or 'in' is quite meaningless. It is not a place nor a time as far as we are concerned, nor is it 'something' since it's energy value is zero. It is 'nothing', it is 'zero everything we know of', zero energy, zero space, zero time. Saying that such 'nothing is unstable and must produce something' is a way of saying that, outside Time, if something CAN happen it MUST happen. It is a bit like saying that regardless how infinitesimally small the probability of something is, as long as it is not IMPOSSIBLE, if we wait long enough it will eventually happen (as long as we have infinite time to wait for). We can not say if the spontaneous creation of Universes out of nothing happens 'a lot', 'quite often' or 'extremely rarely', since without a Time these expressions are meaningless. We can only say that if the appearance of a Universe out of nothing is not impossible, it DOES happen. So if we reach the conclusion that the spontaneous appearance of a Universe out of nothing is not IMPOSSIBLE (it does not seem to violate any conceivable demand of logic and self-consistency we expect to hold true), it follows that the existence of a Universe like ours is unavoidable.
Edited by Gerinski - April 15 2015 at 07:47 |
|
![]() |
|
JJLehto ![]() Prog Reviewer ![]() Joined: April 05 2006 Location: Tallahassee, FL Status: Offline Points: 34550 |
![]() |
Not sure if this is the type of stuff this thread does, and I don't pretend to understand science more than the typical layman, but I found this supremely interesting.
The claim the universe came from nothing, which I guess is not news to science in any way, but that supposedly "nothing" would actually be incredibly unstable, so much so that nothing MUST produce something, he says. This is where I struggle. While I understood more or less all of it, can anyone explain what exactly is "nothing"? Does he mean a vacuum, or some "pre universe" type of nothing, as in no time or literal existence? Guess I can't wrap my head around it, if anyone is familiar with him/the theory and can elaborate, would be appreciated! I don't much care for his snarky attitude but, what can ya do?
Edited by JJLehto - April 15 2015 at 01:05 |
|
![]() |
|
Toaster Mantis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
![]() |
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
|
![]() |
|
Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
![]() |
Exactly one of those analyses could yield something useful.
|
|
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
|
|
![]() |
|
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
Oh goody... more pretend science.
|
|
What?
|
|
![]() |
|
Toaster Mantis ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: April 12 2008 Location: Denmark Status: Offline Points: 5898 |
![]() |
Elsewhere on the net, I found this analysis of That Dress from the angle of not just optical science but also ethics, philosophy of religion and sociology
Edited by Toaster Mantis - March 06 2015 at 13:44 |
|
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
|
|
![]() |
|
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
No one likes to have their perceptions challenged either.
![]() |
|
What?
|
|
![]() |
|
Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
![]() |
I don't think people are comfortable with how subjective and manipulable their perception is.
|
|
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
|
|
![]() |
|
Dean ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
![]() |
Me too - I "saw" it straight away and was initially puzzled by the polarised reaction people had to it.
|
|
What?
|
|
![]() |
|
Equality 7-2521 ![]() Forum Senior Member ![]() ![]() Joined: August 11 2005 Location: Philly Status: Offline Points: 15784 |
![]() |
I thought the illusion was pretty well explained. Randall Munroe was able to recreate it pretty well with a simple illustration.
![]() |
|
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
|
|
![]() |
|
Atavachron ![]() Special Collaborator ![]() ![]() Honorary Collaborator Joined: September 30 2006 Location: Pearland Status: Offline Points: 65616 |
![]() |
Well I guess the 'What Color is This Dress?' t-shirts will do well.
|
|
"Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
|
|
![]() |
Post Reply ![]() |
Page <1234 9> |
Forum Jump | Forum Permissions ![]() You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum |