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jude111 
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Joined: October 20 2009
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 Posted: May 26 2012 at 21:05 |
 Josef_K wrote:
My personal opinion is that too many tend to think that as soon as it's intellectual or complex it must be pretentious. If your theme or whatever you are trying to express is complex that doesn't make you a pretentious artist. Now, if you think the point of making good music is playing fast, I would say you are pretentious, however I would argue that none of the prog performers I like think this way (I'd rather speak about metal guitarists here...).
Faster playing from for an example Rick Wakeman is to a great extent there because it has a purpose and contributes to the music as a whole, not just to show off his skills. So I would say no, based on what I know at least :D |
And how about the cape?
I'm fond of this picture of Wakeman:
To be honest, though, what with the flats in the background, I wonder if there isn't a bit of a "nudge nudge wink wink" going on, more along the lines of the knowing Bowie at the time?
Edited by jude111 - May 26 2012 at 21:10
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jude111
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Posted: May 26 2012 at 20:41 |
colorofmoney91 wrote:
As with just about everything, some people are very pretentious and some are totally not pretentious.
ELP = pretentious
Kansas = not pretentious
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Really? I always thought Kansas were very pretentious. "Carry on my wayward son, there'll be peace when you are done, lay your weary head to rest, and don't you cry no more." I mean, it ain't Dylan. :-)
Granted, they're Americans and presumably from the prairies or the cornfield plains or some other place equally terrifying (perhaps somewhere in or near Kansas? where people really drive in pick-up trucks just like in the movies, and you can see cows and tornadoes and trailer parks and shotguns and girls just like Maryanne in "Gilligan's Island"). One wouldn't expect them to try to do rock versions of Mussorgsky or Dvorak (one wouldn't expect them to hear of them, either, being that they're Americans and all), but they might try to do an American version of pretentious, like adding country fiddles to prog rock or something crazy like that, before coming back to the church.
Okay, sorry, just kdding around. :-) As someone else asked, albeit in a slightly different context, "What's the matter with Kansas?"  
Edited by jude111 - May 26 2012 at 21:03
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colorofmoney91
Prog Reviewer
Joined: March 16 2008
Location: Biosphere
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Points: 22774
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Posted: May 13 2012 at 20:07 |
As with just about everything, some people are very pretentious and some are totally not pretentious.
ELP = pretentious Kansas = not pretentious
It goes on a band by band basis, I think. Kvlt black metal is about as pretentious as prog, as a whole.
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Josef_K
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 15 2011
Location: Stockholm
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Points: 147
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Posted: May 13 2012 at 10:41 |
My personal opinion is that too many tend to think that as soon as it's intellectual or complex it must be pretentious. If your theme or whatever you are trying to express is complex that doesn't make you a pretentious artist. Now, if you think the point of making good music is playing fast, I would say you are pretentious, however I would argue that none of the prog performers I like think this way (I'd rather speak about metal guitarists here...). Faster playing from for an example Rick Wakeman is to a great extent there because it has a purpose and contributes to the music as a whole, not just to show off his skills. So I would say no, based on what I know at least :D
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KingCrInuYasha
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Joined: September 26 2010
Location: USA
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Points: 1281
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Posted: April 30 2012 at 16:46 |
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^ Assuming the person is using it just for the sake of using it.
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He looks at this world and wants it all... so he strikes, like Thunderball!
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RoyFairbank
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 07 2008
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Points: 1072
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 12:46 |
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To use the word pretentious is pretentious.
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Dayvenkirq
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Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 12:10 |
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^ Good one. Clear and concise.
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RyanElliott
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Joined: November 14 2011
Location: Cardiff
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Points: 113
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Posted: April 29 2012 at 05:37 |
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pretentiousadjectiveattempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed
This is involved in all sorts of music and genres including prog but usually, it leads to the worst results.
The best albums I've ever listened to, I don't believe were ever intended to be pretentious so they could better themselves over other artists. The great albums out there are great albums because the artists were inspired by several reasons to write them.
The best prog albums have been written because of the inspiration to search for new sounds through experimentation, different lyrical observations, the enjoyment of creating a musical journey etc.
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Nick Dilley
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Posted: April 27 2012 at 16:51 |
Chozal wrote:
Pretentious : "Making unjustified or excessive claims as of value, or standing".
It is true that Prog has this image for the non-prog listener of a pompous, needlessly intellectual music. I do not think it is true for the genre or for any of the subscenes, as genres : they are neutral ways of making music.
When it comes to musicians, the virtuoso approach can indeed sometimes sound pretentious if that makes any sense. Obvious examples are Emerson or Dream Theater, people that I often hear described as "playing for their own sake". Which can be discussed.
I don't know any but I am sure some prog "fans" too like to feel themselves superior because of the music they enjoy.
To cut it short (or rather shorter, as I am not accustomed with long and documented posts), the music is not pretentious, the people can be. But it still is a minor characteristic that is overblown by the main audience imo, following the punk pattern : "anyone can do music, so why do these old jazz people want us to lear odd time signatures, modes, harmonies ? f**k off, let me play my riffs".
As a minor "downside" to the genre it can be played upon -try to make the most complicated riff, blend as many influences as possible, just for fun - but the masterpieces of Prog - Brave, SEBTP, Aqualung, Images and Words, etc speak to everybody with a rock sensibility at one point or another, without sounding pretentious, just good music.
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agreed. I think when prog goes bad, it it often because of pretentiousness. But, that just means its one of the failings of the artist or composition.
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Progging the Rock, Rocking the Prog.
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theadolescentprogger
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Joined: March 23 2012
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Posted: April 25 2012 at 17:12 |
Pretentious is attempting to impress by affecting greater importance, talent, culture, etc., than is actually possessed. Progressive rock musicians can walk their talk. So no, it isn't.
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DiamondDog
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Location: Cambridge
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Posted: April 25 2012 at 17:02 |
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Yes sir, it sure is, or at least can be at times. But if the guys didn't do what they do wouldn't it be boring - and we would still be in the caves with the other monkeys.
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Dayvenkirq
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Joined: May 25 2011
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 12:59 |
Dean wrote:
^ ^^ ^^^ and ^^^^ .... *sigh*
When the snide and smarmy rock journalists in the late 70s called Progressive Rock "pretentious" they were not being complimentary. They were not criticising the complexity or grandeur of the music but their (wholly negative and disparaging) perception of the musicians that played it and the fans that liked it.
While some Prog bands like Yes and ELP were bombastic and showy and therefore were an easy target for ridicule, that wasn't why the word "pretentious" was used - most of the Prog bands at that time were not bombast or showy, yet they were still called "pretentious". If the reason why Prog was called "pretentious" was because of the second meaning of the word (ie ostentatious) then it would imply that everything was just for show... a facade, and that clearly isn't the case (even with Yes and ELP). They used the word in its primary meaning - arrogance - pretending to be important - delusions of grandeur -elitism. |
OK. Didn't know that. Big deal. And since we are just focusing on the 70's criticism of prog, then let it be as you said it, 'cause I was born in '91.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 24 2012 at 13:01
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Dean
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 12:43 |
^ ^^ ^^^ and ^^^^ .... *sigh*
When the snide and smarmy rock journalists in the late 70s called Progressive Rock "pretentious" they were not being complimentary. They were not criticising the complexity or grandeur of the music but their (wholly negative and disparaging) perception of the musicians that played it and the fans that liked it.
While some Prog bands like Yes and ELP were bombastic and showy and therefore were an easy target for ridicule, that wasn't why the word "pretentious" was used - most of the Prog bands at that time were not bombast or showy, yet they were still called "pretentious". If the reason why Prog was called "pretentious" was because of the second meaning of the word (ie ostentatious) then it would imply that everything was just for show... a facade, and that clearly isn't the case (even with Yes and ELP). They used the word in its primary meaning - arrogance - pretending to be important - delusions of grandeur -elitism.
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What?
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006
Location: .
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:48 |
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If the music is not made with any clear emotional, musical, lyrical or technical goals in mind, it is in danger of coming across as a pretentious affair. I don't think there is anything inherent in the nature of prog that makes it more likely to be pretentious, contrary to the stereotype. On the other hand, I do find the idea of guitar God albums pretentious. Is it really necessary to promote it as a music album...why not just as a guitar demonstration/instructional instead because the songwriting is often crap in these albums.
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Dayvenkirq
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 11:02 |
HolyMoly wrote:
And even if it were pretentious, what's wrong with that anyway? |
I think that some people who use this term think that there has to be a balance between skill and emotion. Other people know that there can also be a balance between skill and fun. As long as there is a balance of some sort, the artist or the band is not pretentious. The artist/band just needs to know when to stop with the exhibition before it turns into just cold, brainless, self-indulgent flash that will turn people off.
Wait. What people? All people? Chances are that can't be. Some people? Most people in the audience?
As Ricky Nelson once wrote:
| Can't please everyone so you ... got to please yourself. |
Which is also a problem. You still can turn off lots of people if you choose flash.
Edited by Dayvenkirq - April 24 2012 at 11:03
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spknoevl
Forum Senior Member
Joined: December 14 2011
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Points: 296
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 09:55 |
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It's only pretentious if they wear capes onstage.
Edited by spknoevl - April 24 2012 at 09:55
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http://martinwebb.bandcamp.com
The notes are just an interesting way to get from one silence to the next - Mick Gooderick
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Big Ears
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Joined: February 08 2005
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Posted: April 24 2012 at 09:31 |
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Progressive rock without its pretentiousness, bombast and self-indulgence would be as dull as ditch-water.
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HolyMoly
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Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:42 |
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And even if it were pretentious, what's wrong with that anyway?
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My other avatar is a Porsche
It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle if it is lightly greased.
-Kehlog Albran
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Ivan_Melgar_M
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Posted: April 23 2012 at 19:20 |
RoyFairbank wrote:
Who even came up with the drivel that Prog is Pretentious? Compared to what?
Pop Music - nope, that is more pretentious (Dance and Lipsync shows! Beef costumes, music written by company hacks.... presented as Artists)
Rap music - nope, that is more pretentious (millionaire "gangsters" full of "pain" in ill fitting clothing with gold chains and swearing and degrading women...)
Country Music - nope that is more pretentious (We Love Jesus! We Really Love Him, and Our Country, we sing like bumpkins and pretend to be "earthy" but we are millionaires)
... etc.
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Can't agree more.
Pretentious is an adjective added by people who believe everything they don't like is crap, they are the true pretentious.
Iván
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RoyFairbank
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Posted: April 23 2012 at 14:54 |
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Who even came up with the drivel that Prog is Pretentious? Compared to what?
Pop Music - nope, that is more pretentious (Dance and Lipsync shows! Beef costumes, music written by company hacks.... presented as Artists)
Rap music - nope, that is more pretentious (millionaire "gangsters" full of "pain" in ill fitting clothing with gold chains and swearing and degrading women...)
Country Music - nope that is more pretentious (We Love Jesus! We Really Love Him, and Our Country, we sing like bumpkins and pretend to be "earthy" but we are millionaires)
... etc.
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Is Progressive Rock truly pretentious?
