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adamhunter 
Forum Newbie 
Joined: December 04 2011 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
 Posted: December 19 2011 at 04:45 |
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Hey,
I don't mind answering any questions. Although I do feel unqualified to do so, I mean I am no expert. In my personal opinion, I feel that a genre lives and dies with it's fans. if it's audience do not buy into the music, the music can not be created. That is simple economics, which I hate mentioning because ultimately music (especially prog) is art. The terms (genre label) however, are coined by institutions. Record labels, journalism, radio, artists, promoters. in a attempt to market a product and create an audience. These Institutions then form a canon of that genre. Encompassing what is and rejecting what isn't in that genre to create a formulaic, standardized blueprint of what makes up that genre. Which ultimately acts as a template for what we accept into the genre, in terms of new acts. (Again all this is accepted by audience - by buying into it) What is very interesting about the Post-Progressive is, that a large number of Prog fans are rejecting this term. However, the music is popular, and selling, it has an audience. Institutions are still pushing this term. As I said previously I am investigating if this in fact a genre. But what is becoming more clear is that the post-progressive may have an audience of its own!?! Although, that would be very problematic for me to conclude this so early into my investigation. The hallmarks of post-prog. are the same as Prog they're just not as virtuosic and in your face. For example. There are conceptual ideas - longer compositions, treating the album as art, advanced production techniques, soundscapes, virtuosic playing. Which is all Prog influence. It's just not as blatant in my opinion. Someone could listen to this having not heard any classic-prog and not find these artists a difficult, marathon-esque like listen. (Again this is only an opinion) I will check out those two Math rock bands, and if you have any more suggestions please feel free. I hope this answers your question? Adam |
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 31 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 5964 |
Posted: December 18 2011 at 14:02 |
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Yes, thanks for that. I was wondering if it was a term Classic Rock Presents Prog might've been using, as that mag seems to be having an increasing impact, especially in the UK and though I don't personally read it (I'm far too poor to afford it) it seems like the sort of term a music journalist would coin. It'll be interesting to see if the term catches on with the wider prog community (no sign of it so far), as the seemingly synonymous new/nu-prog tag was widely rejected on sites like this. I don't mean to get you too bogged down on etymology, but that's a personal interest of mine. So do you think we're looking at a genuine new genre developing here? What, in your opinion, are the hallmarks of post-progressive music? Whose opinion do you think counts the most towards the legitimacy of a genre term - the musicians, the industry (labels/journalists/promoters etc.) or the fans? Don't feel you have to respond to my incessant quizzing, by the way, I'm just intrigued by this project. Finally, it might be worth you taking a look at the current British math pop scene. From my limited understanding of what this term might mean, I'd say bands like Everything Everything and Dutch Uncles seem to fit in rather snugly. |
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laplace
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: October 06 2005 Location: popupControl(); Status: Offline Points: 7606 |
Posted: December 18 2011 at 12:42 |
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sounds like an eminently avoidable sub-category to me o:3
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adamhunter
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 04 2011 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
Posted: December 18 2011 at 12:41 |
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Hey The Hemulan,
Well, the reason I am examining this term is as a casual fan I have seen a trend of this term "Post-Progressive" being used. I believe that the term is still in its infancy and that it is growing, as this new wave of prog (post-progressive) grows in popularity also. The relatively new British record label KScope that has a roster of Anathema, Porcupine Tree, Steven Wilson, The Pineapple Thief, No Sound, Ulver, Lunatic Soul and North Atlantic Oscillation, state that their acts are post-progressive. the label at the top of their website states they are "Post-Progressive Sounds". KScope also host a bi-monthly Podcast which is labelled the "Post progressive Podcast" This term has been steadily reinforced by the Classic Rock Presents Prog Magazine. A British publication which is sold world wide (I believe). Again, I do believe this is in it's infancy, but it is steadily building momentum. As a musicologist student and a fan of all things Prog. I felt that it would be a fantastic opportunity to investigate genre formation and use this as my subject. I really do believe that a lot of Post-Rock acts are associated to Post-Prog, and that there are alot of cross overs. But I really think that is all up for debate at this stage of the genre's (if it is a genre) development. I hope this has answered your question? |
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The Hemulen
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 31 2004 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 5964 |
Posted: December 18 2011 at 11:53 |
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Hi Adam. I'd personally be very interested to know what's lead you to examine this particular term and where else you've encountered it. It's not a phrase I've personally seen being used on this or indeed any other prog-releated site I frequent. Are there examples of music journalists, record labels, or even musicians using the term?
As for the bands you mentioned in your post, I'm not familiar with all of them but here's my take on the few I do know at least well enough to have formed an opinion on them. Muse - Not a progressive rock band, IMO, but nor do they shy away from dipping their toes in proggy waters whenever it takes their fancy. A rock band with a few proggy trimmings every now and then. Radiohead - Innovative, intelligent, ocassionally flat out experimental rock. This isn't quite the same thing as progressive rock, IMO, but I can understand the resultant confusion and bickering amongst prog fans. Mars Volta - Yep, they're a bona fide prog band, IMO. In case you think I'm drawing the prog/not prog distinction on a bands I like/bands I dislike basis (which is a common problem, and something I probably am guilty of at times), they also leave me utterly cold. The others you mentioned I don't know well enough to comment on. Are there any other bands you'd put into this post-rock pigeonhole, I wonder? How about proggy post-rock bands like Godspeed You! Black Emperor or math rock bands like Hella? |
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adamhunter
Forum Newbie
Joined: December 04 2011 Status: Offline Points: 4 |
Posted: December 18 2011 at 07:41 |
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Hello, sorry for my late reply to this thread. You know how it is with the balance or work and study. Anywho, I would like to thank everyone who has answered this thread. It is really much appreciated. Investigating this term, to see if it is in fact a genre has been most problematic, but immensely interesting.
Please feel free to continue to answer my question, each view is welcomed very much. My study on this subject would not be what it is without yours and the input of other music fans Adam
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darkshade
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: November 19 2005 Location: New Jersey Status: Offline Points: 10964 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 12:49 |
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If you analyze the LANGUAGE being used, "post-progressive" sounds like some thing that is NOT progressive. "After progressive" is what this means.
For example, "Post-rock" really doesnt have many rockin' moments to my ears; from what Ive heard. This whole "post-(subgenre)" is really just stupid. |
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Horizons
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: January 20 2011 Location: Somewhere Else Status: Offline Points: 16952 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 09:45 |
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^ Agreed. I remember someone posting a Wiki article on "Post-Prog", and it mostly consisted of crossover bands.
To try to answer your questions. I believe a lot of the bands you list are progressive, they just tend to be more accessible to the public. Thus the Crossover label.
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Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Earendil
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: November 17 2008 Location: Indiana, USA Status: Offline Points: 1584 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 09:38 |
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From my understanding, post-progressive would most resemble crossover prog on PA. Generally, the bands have progressive elements but often aren't part of the "prog scene".
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 08:08 |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 07:23 |
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^ Ditto. Same goes for "nu-prog", "new-prog", etc.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 07:11 |
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^Ok maybe I went a bit too far. My point at least was, that if we are going to put stickers on artists, then multitagging is far more comprehensible, than creating a new name every time we hear relatively new genres colliding with each other.
Post-progressive fx sounds like something a doctor would put in front of a word like disorder... |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 06:51 |
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^ that's unfair, RYM wouldn't invent a ridiculous multi-tag descriptor for a band, they'd use several of the already established (sub)genres.
Checking now:
That looks both reasonable and accurate. |
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 06:48 |
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I´m glad we don´t have to put stickers on everything new like they do on RYM. Things get overly complex pretty quickly that way.
Pretty soon we´d have bands like Wooden Shjips and Dungen labelled as Neo-retro-proto-psychedelic-post-progressive-rock... What was it Shakespeare once said about that rose? |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 06:45 |
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^ you ninja'd me in saying that was a great example.
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 06:31 |
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^^^^ Yes, good example, that's the one I was thinking of too.
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010 Location: Lancaster, UK Status: Offline Points: 1321 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 06:17 |
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Well some people would say that real classical music ended after the Romantic period. Just because 20th Century music sounds very, very different, and the composers wrote to push boundaries instead of actually making pleasant music (bit of a generalisation there), doesn't mean it's a new genre. And of course you have a lot of neo-classical composers writing music 'looking back' to previous eras but like neo-prog, there is a clear distinction between these works and the older works that were the inspiration. I'm not sure we do need to add an extra layer of complexity to these existing genres we have on the site now. They do a great job of distinguishing music by actual musical differences. People can like one genre and not like another because they sound different. Why add genres based on timescale? Of course, timescale does have an influence on how the music sounds, but we already have genres for how music sounds. No need to make it more complicated. (I apologise for my ham-fisted expanations. I'm not good at structuring my points in text form
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ExittheLemming
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 19 2007 Location: Penal Colony Status: Offline Points: 11420 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 05:46 |
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Yep, fair point as many musical genres often evolve into something that only has a tenuous relation to the original. However, given that Prog is claimed to have been extant for close to say, 40 years there are some who might claim (with some justification) that Prog effectively ended circa 1978. For me, it's a huge and pivotal historical influence on many of the excellent modern bands you have cited but I'm dubious if Prog even actually exists today. BTW I'm neither an elitist or a prog purist but am guilty of being an old fart  |
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rogerthat
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 03 2006 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 9869 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 05:40 |
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Yes. A bit of reading between the lines there perhaps but I am of the same view. Especially considering the examples cited included Radiohead and Muse. I agree also that we don't have to come up with new names just to accommodate change...that's actually one of the reasons so much rock has gone stale, if anything. |
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JS19
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 10 2010 Location: Lancaster, UK Status: Offline Points: 1321 |
Posted: December 04 2011 at 05:31 |
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I find that the main reason people want to have a new name for 'newer' prog, is so that they can disassociate it from the earlier stuff. I prefer to see it as something that has changed over time, not something completely new. Things do change, but if at every change you try to call it a new thing then that completely annuls the whole idea of a changing genre, which is one of the things I love so much about progressive music. |
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Post-Progressive
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adamhunter wrote: